Official Luthiers Forum!

With the advent of increasing costs for everything I opted at my shop to go ahead and make the investment into good tooling and know-how to do stainless steel refrets. I figured that most folks aren't going to be spending big bucks to buy a new neck/new instrument in the next few years when costs increase exponentially, so I'm making the wager that they'd be willing to invest into a lifetime refret instead of one that will have to be done again at some point since money may be unknown or extra tight in the near future.

For electrics this was a good thing and I've been successful in getting things going in the area. For acoustic I haven't given it much thought, so I was wondering what everyone on here thought of it?

Only downside I could see is potentially some folks might find it weird to put stainless on an acoustic. But if you're a working country musician (And many of my clients are) then having something where the first 5 frets will last indefinitely would be a major benefit to them. I know EVO fretwire is popular from some makers but I have had no success in pitching that to my clients over the last 5 years. Specifically they don't like the look/color of them.

I have been doing stainless for a few years
the number 1 complaint on acoustics I hear is that some customers say they sound tinny personally my ears are not that good

evo is another alternative

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

It seems like a good idea to me but that idea that they are 'tinny' sounding is definitely out there. I've had more than a few come in saying they specifically do NOT want SS frets and prefer the ones that wear out because they are better for tone. Then I do my best to convince them to at least go with EVO which is the stuff I prefer now. I didn't like the color at first myself but it's pretty easy to get over it.

I come in peace and genuinely asking.... Also, I've done all of two SS fret jobs, so maybe they get faster the more you do them.

SS requires special tooling and from my limited experience more time to complete the job. Is there a specific reason for trying to convince a potential recurring customer to be a one time customer? Are you charging more for a SS job labor wise (I expect yes) and does that offset the profit from future refrets?

_________________
Insta - https://www.instagram.com/cbcguitars/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/cbcguitars

I've done several refrets in stainless, and have found no need to buy new equipment. The harder material requires slightly different techniques and more attention to detail. Stainless is less forgiving than nickel silver, that's all. But your tools (nippers, files, etc.), should be sharp - dull tools will harden the frets. Also - expect to use twice as much sandpaper or other abrasives when polishing. It's going to take you a little extra time, too - so an upcharge for stainless is warranted. That said - I don't find stainless that much better than nickel silver.

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Regarding tone -- I ran a few tests because I used SS fretwire early on and didn't notice any tonal artifacts on the fret material. The simulation was just different fret material with the tang sanded flush and then fretting with each of the different materials. In my particular case, I also had SS frets installed on this one guitar. What I noticed is that there is a slightly "ping" to the sound that both EVO and regular wire don't have. It lasts for just a microsecond at the beginning but if you really listen for it then you can hear it. I'm not exactly sure what is happening (I have my theories but nothing substantial) but SS fretwire does indeed sound a bit different. I recall how Taylor guitars threw out a whole bunch of necks with stainless frets because they didn't like the sound. I don't think it would matter on an electric and I also think a ton of folks wouldn't be bothered with the tinny sound on an acoustic. It is subtle and doesn't persist for long. But it is certainly something I avoid. My recommendation is to stick with regular wire or EVO.

The shop OM has EVO on it and I let clients play that and let me know what they think of the neck. After that I can point out that it has EVO frets and they're not that noticeable. If they still want nickel silver then so be it.

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

In our prior business Dave refretted a Tele for a well known Nashville session player. He hated the stainless and offered to pay us again to go back to nickel silver. This was the next day and the guy was almost panicked.

Over the years I've asked people what they think about Stainless and Dave ran a test, blind test where he purchased a mule from Elderly Instruments and refretted it with NS and stainless and made a legend as to which were which. Lots of folks participated in the sit down and play and tell us where you think the stainless is. I think some of our students may have too.

No one including me was able to get this correct.

Nonetheless regardless of the validity of the "tinny" claims which I hear a lot from older men abut stainless it is a persistent perception in the market Dan so you will have to address the perception regardless of the science or anyone's ability to actually hear a difference.

As for working with it our experience is much like Chris's in that we did not have to change tools and can cut it, although it's hard on my hands now and work also much harder but the same techniques work.

I'll add that people who work with stainless a lot learn all manner of ways to reduce the grunt work that it can be. So doing an exceptional job leveling the board, imparting some relief on the bass side and less relief on the treble side all with the fret board is very useful when you use stainless because the heavy lifting is done on the fret board not the hard to mill frets. Once the frets are in they just need to be kissed for a final level. No heavy grinding.

So stainless does wear, may sound tinny to some especially older men in my informal survey and no one can pick out which fret is stainless from tone and then you have the market perception that the segment who purchases the most guitars these days, 55 year old men and older have about a 50% perception that it sounds tinny.

If that does not make you happy it does wear your tools, bones and muscles faster and stuff takes longer at least for me. We do stainless often and charge a bit more too because it is harder generally.

I just bought another guitar an hour ago from Wildwood and it's got stainless and a compound 9 - 12 radius, a Suhr. This will be my first stainless guitar. We shall see.

_________________
Ann Arbor Guitars

Good info in this thread. At the risk of a slight derail.. has anyone tried StewMac’s “cryowire”?

Our experience was that once a player went to properly done stainless (all the little details correct; wet set in either med CA or hot hide glue, etc.), they moved to stainless on their other guitars when it was refret time. As Mr. Breakstone mentioned, no tonal case there, but instead an avoided cost and playability issue.

Definitely a learning curve for the luthier. We had a local, very experienced repair person that spent a few hours in the shop getting an in-depth tutorial in prep for his first stainless refret. We ended up finishing the job for him after he ran into issues on seating and finishing and said it was not worth his time to learn a 'new trade' just to cover a few customers. Another local repairman will not work with stainless at all (or anything bigger than standard Martin wire), so we saw a lot of stainless refrets.

On the tone test business...most of the demo guitars were fretted with stainless - 80 x 43 on a traditional 12 fret dreadnaught, 95 x 47 on an OM cutaway, 100 x 50 on a grand auditorium, and 95 x 47 on the shop's Tele mule. On several occasions, I witnessed highly knowledgeable, experienced players mention that they liked that we fretted new guitars in 'traditional' nickel silver rather than stainless. Yes - we did tell them they had been playing on stainless, but only after squeezing all that juice.

For vintage bar and compression t-fret work, we obviously went with nickel silver based on available materials, but I became quite comfortable with all three wires, although bass wire in stainless would still cause my hands to ache just looking at the coils of EVO and stainless on the shop wall. My gel-padded bicycle gloves did double duty on the road bike and in the shop.

_________________
We have become a civilization that elevates idiots, prostitutes, and clowns. Am I still to defend it? Yes, for its principles. Yes, for what it was. Yes, for what it still may be.

-Mark Helprin, The Oceans and the Stars: A Sea Story, A War Story, A Love Story (A Novel)

Wait until you hear about trained luthiers who refuse to make left handed nuts....

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

I have tried SM's cryowire and I am not sure it felt any more different then regular wire. I only bought some about a year or two ago so they have not been time tested in the field either. But it is my understanding that the wire is measured for hardness and is in fact harder. Probably not as good as EVO though and nowhere near SS.

For what it is worth, I started out with stainless steel fretwire and learned to use it quite well. I'd prefer to use stainless as I liked how slick the frets feel once you've polished them -- and they also seemed to hold that smoothness level for a long time. I would much prefer to use stainless and would be doing so if not for the tonal artifacts that I do indeed notice.

As far as what to notice -- look only at the initial attack of the note. I notice a microsecond "plink" or "ping" sound and then it's gone. I built dozens of guitars with stainless and never noticed it. Then I did direct comparisons on different fret material for the same note on the same guitar. The EVO and nickel don't have that initial ping. I suspect some folks with really great hearing would be bothered a lot by this -- and I also suspect that the vast majority of people over 40 will never be able to hear it and also that most younger players won't be bothered by it as well. I have hearing loss at that register and so it isn't super noticeable to me but it is still noticeable if I'm actively looking for it.

One last thing, the reason I ran my simulation (I simply removed the tang from the 3 different fret materials and place the fret material right behind an existing fret on a guitar) was because of the Taylor comments on stainless as well as some online comments where people noticed they had a tinny quality. I personally thought it was nonsense as I had been using the material for about 5 years by then. It took me about 5 minutes of constant going back and forth between the fret material before I noticed it and then it was "oh, I get it now".

As will all things, your mileage may vary but it may be worth testing this out for yourself and coming to your own conclusions.

Some good things to chew on.

In this case I am looking at this as a purely profitable job since stainless does indeed incur a not insignificant amount of extra work.

The extra "ping" aside I think I'll start offering it on acoustics and see what the results are.

This will be my first stainless guitar. Ordered it yesterday and it should be here Sunday. 9 - 12 compound radius, stainless frets. Thinking an HSS config may tame the tinny if there is really any tinny going on.

I'll let you know what I think after I've played it a while.

_________________
Ann Arbor Guitars

I just wanted to add that I don't think SS wire is a bad thing at all. I do think there is a slight microsecond ping in the initial attack but I certainly wouldn't stake my life on it. Maybe I am imagining things but if anything, I had a bias towards SS frets and so, I think I came to my conclusions with as much objectivity as I could. I sincerely think for most people, SS wire will be fine -- if you are a repair service, I certainly would recommend becoming competent with it. Additionally, some folks might even prefer the sound -- there's never anything wrong with offering customers options.

You'll probably love it. The shop I work out of is a huge Suhr dealer and every one we've ever gotten in has been extremely high quality.

As an update on this, I refretted my own Martin HD-7 McGuinn with stainless. Can't really hear a tone difference but I can say for sure that they are very nice.

Yeah I'm thrilled with this guitar in every respect and it is now the finest small f*ctory instrument I'ver ever spent any time with. The stainless frets are nice and I like them too and Suhr dresses the ends superbly. She came with f*ctory action below low and around 3/64th" and 4/64" for the high e and low e at the 12 respectively. I'll be raising the action in a week after she settles in here and I do my own set-up.

The fit and finish is incredible too. These are the best Strat type guitars I'ver ever seen. So Hesh just went stainless for the second time I had a Parker Fly Deluxe in Italian Plum (purple) that had them too IIRC.

_________________
Ann Arbor Guitars

I used stainless frets on my first acoustic guitar build... They seem easier to hammer in compared to nickel frets, but that was at the time when I had limited fretting experience and it could just be the quality difference between Stewmac vs. Jescar fret wires. I couldn't notice much difference in tone but they are less forgiving when it comes to springieness, as in if your slot is not absolutely the right fit for the tang it wants to bounce up and off, and stay that way.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com