Official Luthiers Forum!

Owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 9:32 am


All times are UTC - 5 hours


Forum rules


Be nice, no cussin and enjoy!




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 2:02 am 
Offline
Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2022 5:42 pm
Posts: 88
First name: Thomas
Last Name: T
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
My Martin Mahogany guitars have a black grain integrated in. Are they using an Ebony green filler, or is that the way mahogany comes out naturally?

Also, do you guys use green filler on the spruce top?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 2:27 am 
Offline
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:49 am
Posts: 12971
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
First name: Hesh
Last Name: Breakstone
City: Ann Arbor
State: Michigan
Country: United States
Status: Professional
No filler on tops and what Martin has used, currently uses, etc. is generally not what we or small builders use. John Hall who is a member here is a good one to ask if you want the current scoop on what Martin is doing but again most of us use something different and many of us had trouble making what Martin uses for pore filler work. I found what they were using 20 years ago to be a nightmare to make work in a small shop, burlap, etc who needs it.

I used epoxy with great results even nearly 20 years out now, no shrinking in the pores (yet).

Pore filling may be something in Lutherie that does not scale well meaning what the big guys use does not translate to something easy for us to use. YMMV AND welcome to the forum Thomas.

_________________
Ann Arbor Guitars


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 8:10 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 4:02 am
Posts: 3227
Location: The Woodlands, Texas
First name: Barry
Last Name: Daniels
I am apparently alone in this but I use oil-based, paste wood pore filler, which is what Martin uses. I find the this filler is no harder to use than most other fillers. I buy neutral colored filler and tint it with colorants. On mahogany I tint the filler to a dark chocolate brown. For rosewood I tint it to a darker shade that is sort of a blackish brown. Hesh is correct, in that the filler is a bit hard to use until you learn a few tricks. Always use the filler after applying a couple of coats of sealer or thinned lacquer. Also, don't let the filler dry too much before wiping it off. I don't use burlap, but just a small piece of an old terry cloth towel. Don't wipe too much or you will remove the filler from the pores. Let the filler dry for 48 hours before you start apply finish.



These users thanked the author Barry Daniels for the post (total 3): Robbie_McD (Tue Jul 19, 2022 8:51 am) • joshnothing (Tue Jul 19, 2022 6:44 am) • Hesh (Mon Jul 18, 2022 12:18 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 8:24 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:21 am
Posts: 4839
Location: Central PA
First name: john
Last Name: hall
City: Hegins
State: pa
Zip/Postal Code: 17938
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
Martin uses a comercial product Mineral spirit based not unlike pore o paq it is stained with Maple #55
you can get a similar result using dark walnut ( MinWax ) or use Jeff Jewitts toners sold at LMII and stewMac
They use a few drops of Naphtha to help flash the filler

so Stain first seal Vinyl sealer 1 coat
fill 2 applications and buff in well scrape binding
seal another coat scuff sand then apply nitro

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it



These users thanked the author bluescreek for the post: Hesh (Mon Jul 18, 2022 12:18 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 9:52 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:20 am
Posts: 5924
Using burlap to remove oil based paste fillers does make the work go quicker and seems to remove the excess and leave the filler in the pores. It's getting harder to find old burlap bags so you may have to resort to - buying [headinwall]- burlap from the fabric store. As Barry mentioned, don't let the filler dry too much before removing the excess. For woods with large open pores a second application (after the first dries) may be needed.
On woods that don't need a colored filler to get the look I want I usually "fill" with epoxy.



These users thanked the author Clay S. for the post: Hesh (Mon Jul 18, 2022 12:19 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 10:00 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:49 pm
Posts: 951
First name: peter
Last Name: havriluk
City: granby
State: ct
Zip/Postal Code: 06035
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Hesh mentions that small shops/individual builders may not be well served in trying to mimic a factory's techniques. That applies to construction, too. Factory building, I think, concentrates on minimizing the parts count and minimizing construction operations. That doesn't mean that it's to a builder's advantage to copy the factory.

_________________
Peter Havriluk



These users thanked the author phavriluk for the post: Hesh (Mon Jul 18, 2022 12:19 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 12:16 pm 
Offline
Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2022 5:42 pm
Posts: 88
First name: Thomas
Last Name: T
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
bluescreek wrote:
Martin uses a comercial product Mineral spirit based not unlike pore o paq it is stained with Maple #55
you can get a similar result using dark walnut ( MinWax ) or use Jeff Jewitts toners sold at LMII and stewMac
They use a few drops of Naphtha to help flash the filler

so Stain first seal Vinyl sealer 1 coat
fill 2 applications and buff in well scrape binding
seal another coat scuff sand then apply nitro


Thanks, John.

I should’ve been more specific in my question. I’m more concerned with getting the color to match my martin guitar. I am not concerned with what particular product they use or what tools they use. I’ll use some dark walnut grain filler from stew Mac. I found another post somewhere else that claimed they stain the wood with a mixture of red mahogany and dark walnut.

I really like the colors they get on mahogany.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 2:19 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 4:02 am
Posts: 3227
Location: The Woodlands, Texas
First name: Barry
Last Name: Daniels
If you want the Martin look then you'd be better off using the exact products they use. You would never get that color with an epoxy filler. I like Aqua Coat too but it would also not be good for the Martin fill.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 4:48 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:21 am
Posts: 4839
Location: Central PA
First name: john
Last Name: hall
City: Hegins
State: pa
Zip/Postal Code: 17938
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
I found that Minwax special walnut ( redish ) followed by Minwax dark walnut gave a good color match to the martin
as for the filler
You can mix dark walnut into the filler I found aqua coat worked well to give you the dark pore filler look
you can also use dark walnut Pore o Paq it gets it pretty close

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 5:59 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 20, 2010 11:20 pm
Posts: 502
Location: Kurtistown, Hawaii
First name: Bob
Last Name: Gleason
City: Kurtistown
State: Hawaii
Zip/Postal Code: 96760
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
In the good old days, I used call Martin and they would pop pints of filler or stain in the mail in plastic bottles. I did that for a bunch of years. It was naptha based filler, tinted for rosewood or mahogany. The application was the old apply it, let it almost dry, and they scrub off the excess with burlap. It was not difficult to do. One big advantage was that the colored filler showed any sanding flaws before you went on with the finish. A big disadvantage was that you had to be cafeful about sanding through to bare wood during the finishing process. As a filler, I think it worked better than Aquacoat or other water base fillers that we use now. I currently use Aquacoat, because of it's colorless properties, and I don't care much for it. Always looking for a better product.

_________________
“ The meaning of life is to find your gift and the purpose of life is to give it away” Pablo Picasso



These users thanked the author Pegasusguitars for the post: TimAllen (Wed Jul 20, 2022 10:53 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 10:43 pm 
Offline
Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2022 5:42 pm
Posts: 88
First name: Thomas
Last Name: T
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
bluescreek wrote:
I found that Minwax special walnut ( redish ) followed by Minwax dark walnut gave a good color match to the martin
as for the filler
You can mix dark walnut into the filler I found aqua coat worked well to give you the dark pore filler look
you can also use dark walnut Pore o Paq it gets it pretty close


Thanks, John


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 11:12 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:03 pm
Posts: 569
First name: Toonces
Last Name: the Cat
City: New Smyrna Beach
State: FL
Country: United States
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Currently using Cardinal's Rosewood oil-based filler on Mahogany necks. I really like Epoxy as a pore-filler but the Cardinal Rosewood filler makes mahogany necks look vastly superior. It really is no contest. Let it dry for at least 3 days after pore-filling before moving to the next step. Like everything else, there is a bit of a learning curve but it is actually very easy to use.



These users thanked the author Toonces for the post (total 2): Robbie_McD (Tue Jul 19, 2022 8:54 am) • Barry Daniels (Tue Jul 19, 2022 7:37 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2022 12:36 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2013 8:16 am
Posts: 358
First name: Brian
City: U.P.
State: Michigan
Focus: Build
If anyone making recommendations has some pictures, I'd love to see examples.

Thanks

_________________
Brian R, Wood Mechanic
N8ZED


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2022 2:42 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 4:02 am
Posts: 3227
Location: The Woodlands, Texas
First name: Barry
Last Name: Daniels
Here is a replacement 00-17 mahogany body for an 1931 Martin neck that got some old LMII oil based filler.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.



These users thanked the author Barry Daniels for the post: rbuddy (Tue Jul 19, 2022 6:39 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2022 8:36 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 18, 2012 8:35 pm
Posts: 2658
Location: Austin, Texas
First name: Dan
Last Name: Smith
City: Round Rock
State: TX
Zip/Postal Code: 78681
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Barry Daniels wrote:
Here is a replacement 00-17 mahogany body for an 1931 Martin neck that got some old LMII oil based filler.

Looks great!
I’ve searched oil based filler and come up empty.

_________________
wah
Wah-wah-wah-wah
Wah


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2022 8:51 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 4:02 am
Posts: 3227
Location: The Woodlands, Texas
First name: Barry
Last Name: Daniels
Other terms for this filler are "paste wood pore filler", and "silex filler".

Here is a link: Pore-O-Pac


Last edited by Barry Daniels on Wed Jul 20, 2022 8:58 am, edited 1 time in total.


These users thanked the author Barry Daniels for the post: dzsmith (Wed Jul 20, 2022 11:39 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2022 8:53 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 10:11 am
Posts: 2142
dzsmith wrote:
Barry Daniels wrote:
Here is a replacement 00-17 mahogany body for an 1931 Martin neck that got some old LMII oil based filler.

Looks great!
I’ve searched oil based filler and come up empty.


Try Mohawk Finishing Products.



These users thanked the author Brad Goodman for the post: dzsmith (Wed Jul 20, 2022 11:39 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: banjopicks, DennisK and 45 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com