| Official Luthiers Forum! https://luthiersforum.com/forum/ |
|
| Regluing heel crack https://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=55179 |
Page 1 of 2 |
| Author: | Pmaj7 [ Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Regluing heel crack |
I glued this D28 crack about 5 years ago and it just came back. I cannot remember if I used hhg or TB. Most likely Tight Bond. Recommendations for how to proceed? Tia! If I knew for sure it was hhg, I would just add some more. Anyway to test? Also, I will move the strap button this time. I think it likely contributed to the failure... The owner plays two to three hours a night with a strap on.  Pat |
|
| Author: | Mike Collins [ Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Regluing heel crack |
That is not a Martin factory neck joint The fit is NOT up to their quality. That could also be why the neck cracked. Mike |
|
| Author: | Mike Collins [ Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Regluing heel crack |
I hope John Hall see this -he'll tell ya the same thing Mike |
|
| Author: | Hesh [ Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Regluing heel crack |
I think this neck joint needs to be rebuilt from the ground up. More specifically yes there is a gap on the heel to body joint which is either poor fitting whomever reset this last (Martin would not let it leave their factory this way) or poor fitting of the lowest part of the dovetail that does all the heavy lifting and it came or is coming loose. So I would not reglue it without removing the neck and examining it more closely and that will tell you what glue was used too. Reassemble, add wood to the strap button hole, refit after rebuilding the dovetail for a tight fit all the way up and down and then reset it. The action looks high on the e string too does it need a neck reset which can contribute to this too? If so now is a great opportunity to do one. I see a nick in the neck joint too someone has been in there as Mike suspected. |
|
| Author: | Pat Foster [ Mon Aug 08, 2022 12:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Regluing heel crack |
The way the crack has opened up north of the strap button hole, that gap would translate to 5 or 6 times that amount into upward movement at the nut. So, yep, neck reset time. |
|
| Author: | SteveSmith [ Mon Aug 08, 2022 12:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Regluing heel crack |
Looks like maybe a crack on the side too or is that just a scratch? I would check the neck block and everything around it too. |
|
| Author: | RogerHaggstrom [ Mon Aug 08, 2022 12:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Regluing heel crack |
I would drill a hole through the heel, from the fretboard side or from the bottom of the heel, that passes the crack and glue in a hardwood round rod (I use a 8 mm birch round rod) with epoxy. A trussrod may be in the way from the fretboard side. I would glue the crack first with hot hide glue, then drill the hole and glue the round rod. |
|
| Author: | Terence Kennedy [ Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Regluing heel crack |
I agree with Hesh, that neck should probably come off, crack fixed, reinforced if necessary, head-block checked, and reset. How is the neck set? Is it a Virgin neck joint? No prior resets? I have drilled up through the heel cap on cheaper guitars with a hairline crack that was not separated and epoxied in a carbon fiber tube. |
|
| Author: | doncaparker [ Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Regluing heel crack |
I trust (and agree with) the wisdom expressed above as to the best solution. I'm drawn to ask how the crack happened in the first place. Any educated guesses? I have a guess, but it's not all that educated. 
|
|
| Author: | phavriluk [ Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Regluing heel crack |
I'll take a SWAG at the source of the crack: Whoever installed the strap button didn't drill a large-enough pilot hole for the screw and put a wedging load on the neck, and it eventually split. An in-situ regluing of the crack didn't get glue completely into the crack, and physics overcame the starved glue joint for a second failure. Fill the exist strap button hole and drill a new one nearby, the strap button will just about cover the repaired hole. After fixing the break. I like the idea of putting a reinforcement rod in the neck. The neck won't be as willing to break, period. |
|
| Author: | doncaparker [ Mon Aug 08, 2022 4:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Regluing heel crack |
phavriluk wrote: I'll take a SWAG at the source of the crack: Whoever installed the strap button didn't drill a large-enough pilot hole for the screw and put a wedging load on the neck, and it eventually split. Precisely my guess, too. I have learned this lesson the hard way, unfortunately. My three preventive measures that I now take (having been bitten): 1. Make sure the drill bit matches the size of the shank of the screw, so that only the threads bite into the wood outside the pilot hole. Any expansion of the hole to accommodate the screw shank is bad news. 2. Clamp across the grain the wood to be screwed, so that, if there is an immediate reaction of the wood to the driving of the screw, it is compression of the surrounding wood, rather than splitting along grain lines. 3. Put beeswax on the screw to reduce friction while driving it in. None of that helps fix it once it happens. But I would rather not have it happen in the first place. |
|
| Author: | Hesh [ Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Regluing heel crack |
Couple more things to add: It's a Martin so Martin certified repair people are always going to be recommended by me and I am one but we don't accept shipped in work and we are turning away most jobs all year now we are too busy. But folks who work on these all of the time for warranty purposes are often well versed in what NOT to do in terms of modifications to the instrument that would hurt it's value come resale time.... When I install a strap button Job one is to interrogate the joint with knowledge... and/or magnets for any metal bolts that would interfere with where I want the button. This is a Martin dovetail so not applicable but it should be mentioned because the world has more than Martin dovetails in it..... I drill a hole the diameter of the shaft of the screw so that only the threads have more diameter than the hole. Lots of folks do this their own way but I'm 1/3 down and 7/8" out from the body for my button holes. I put Howards-feed-n-wax, just a drop on my screw tip to lubricate it as it's screwed in place. My felt color, white or black is to match the binding, usually. Now I wanted to add that if it needs a neck reset they can commonly crack a heel like this too and the strap button likely only provided a path of least resistance for a crack that was wanting to happen because of the need for a neck reset. If you don't do repair work you likely have not observed that when an instrument needs a neck reset it's common, very common for many other things to be wrong too at the same time. We see commonly bridge lifts, loose braces, top cracks and even heel cracks all from that neck changing angles and the string tension starting to tear the instrument apart. With this said this is why I would address the root cause of the crack first, the need for a neck reset and it's also an opportunity to have the heel and neck off the instrument and have easier access to the repair and cosmetics. |
|
| Author: | Woodie G [ Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Regluing heel crack |
On waxing screws, we used recycled Kiwi shoe polish tins filled with bee's wax (real beeswax commode rings work... obviously buying them new is preferable), with that tin held vertically above the bench on a magnetic holder... a quick stab of a screw or pin got just the right amount where it was needed and avoided the use of both hands as might have been necessary with use a squeeze container or other closed applicator. Beeswax loses volatiles at a glacial rate, so an open tin mounted on a vertical surface stays reasonable clean and lasts for decades without hardening up. A new section of commode sealing ring (avoid the synthetic wax variety) added to the tin and place outside on a hot day to melt will renew the wax, with any debris picked up in use sinking to the bottom of the tin and away from the surface employed for the stab or scrape motion. With the change in the warranty policy and no recent move (that I am familiar with) towards a revitalized, properly surveilled certified repairer/shop program, the value-added proposition for the owner associated with using a factory-certified shop seems more than offset by using a repair person that enjoys a stellar reputation for actual work done. When I was at Greenridge, we had several discussions with Martin on the topic of the need to revamp their certification program and to properly surveil those repair people once granted cert by the factory. While bad repairs by Martin-certified repair people are likely a small fraction of total warranty and non-warranty Martin repairs accomplished by all certified shops, we saw enough of them to justify adding qualifiers to any recommendation as follows: "Find a factory-authorized shop that knows what they are about and has an excellent reputation, then get on their schedule for the work." |
|
| Author: | Hesh [ Tue Aug 09, 2022 7:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Regluing heel crack |
I don't know what Martin's criteria for certifying shops is but we were let in the moment we asked. They knew Dave and he was certified prior at Elderly and Galloup so that likely had much to do with it. Good tip on the wax. We like Howards because we use it on fret boards and sometimes bridges and we also use it now to lightly wax boards before using thin CA to glue down frets, the wax makes clean-up of the CA a breeze. So it's already on the bench but the one hand advantage is attractive and a cool idea, thanks Woodie. Doing Martin warranty work although Martin is a great company and their products are excellent is not always a prize. We charge and get significantly more for our efforts when it's NOT Martin warranty and Taylor was such a low payer we proactively dropped them for the low fees that they offer and we did not agree with a number of their suggestions... for how to fix something. It's our asses that the client will be upset with not Taylor if we did it their way and the repair did not stay repaired. So we dropped Taylor and never looked back. I can't recall the last time anyone asked us if we were Taylor certified even though we were and then walked. One example of where we disagreed with Taylor to the point of walking away from the relationship was how they say to reglue a lifting bridge. I won't go into details on their process but I will say that our process was significantly more involved, took WAY longer, employed HHG only and required a full clean up of the bridge patch including full removal of the bridge. We could not warranty the Taylor process so we never did it their way anyway but we lost our ass money wise and resented it to the breaking point... On the other hand Martin certification is what I call "a credential" because to many it's one sign, they think, of proficiency and chops. I'm not ready to say it isn't either because in my experience all the other Martin certified folks I know are great repair people and do excellent work. Martin pays better but still much less than we charge people off the street. And we DO get asked if we are Martin certified a couple of times a week. It's a big attracter for many and not just for warranty work, many clients we have only use Martin certified shops for non-warranty work. I do know of three Luthiers who were turned down by Martin and told me they were. Again I don't know why but I suspect that there may be some protected territories geographically, perhaps but again... I do not know this is speculation on my part. I could see and I am speculating that a stocking, selling dealer has a significant investment in Martin product and may also have a bit of a protected territory both sales and repair wise. I'm guessing though and I turned 65 this year so what do I know...  John Hall might know he's a frequent flier in Martinville and my go-to guy for all things Martin factory. Woodie you guys should be certified though if you were OK with the renumeration Martin would be better served by adding Greedridge for sure. If you ever need a reference we would be happy to provide a great one for you and I'm betting that John Hall would too. I've seen lots of Martins in your posts including some nice vintage ones and have no doubt that your work is top shelf in all respects. |
|
| Author: | bluescreek [ Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Regluing heel crack |
That neck needs real attention. I suspect a loose joint started this. Once glued you do need to be sure to get the old glue out. I am not a fan of HHG when there are previous repairs and gapping. Yes dowel that neck and in this case my glue of choice would be west system or system 3 epoxy. They take a long time to cure and penetrate well into the cell . As for getting certified with Martin they became more picky in the last few years you have to submit a resume and work that you have done. You also need to be tied into a martin dealer. You also have to prove you know your stuff and be insured. it is worth the effort , the pay isn't the best but you can do alright. It brings in a lot of referral work |
|
| Author: | Woodie G [ Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Regluing heel crack |
Not a question of asking; the guys were asked and declined... at least twice that I recall. I believe their discussions with Nazareth were more focused on the ways the program should be adjusted to move towards more consistent results and to assist those not meeting standards to receive the training they need or walking papers where improvement was unlikely. To put this in perspective, the closest Martin certified repair shop that we would routinely refer warranty work to was about a 2.5 hour drive from the shop. Not going to get into the problems we saw with local shops, but ultimately, it was simpler to send the customer to Nazareth or to Hegens, or down into the Carolinas where we knew any warranty work would be accomplished to standard. This may be as much an issue with us not seeing successfully repaired guitars from the really good local shops as it is customers simply refusing to stray from repair shops that treat them right, so lack of feedback on the Martin certified shops closer to us may unfairly have caused us to assume the worst. Finally, there is opportunity cost to consider. If a shop is working to capacity, warranty work reduces revenue by effectively reducing the hourly rate and adding to overhead hours (there are always unbillable hours with warranty work however much we might deny it). If not at capacity, warranty work adds revenue and moves the shop towards all programmed work hours being subscribed, albeit with reduced aggregate rate, lower potential revenue versus non-revenue work, etc. A shop that can stay fully employed with non-warranty work is potentially more profitable, but throttling that work is tough if the repair wait list is not filled with very patient, very picky, very loyal customers. So it really seems like there is a choice to be made based on both the nature of the work coming in and how many repair hours are available to soak up additional work. |
|
| Author: | bluescreek [ Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Regluing heel crack |
Granted the pay could be better but the association of being on the martin site brings in some high end work. Because of that I had 2 34 D28 and a 36 000-28 restoration this year so you take the bad with the good. In the end it works out. I usually get about 4 to 6 resets a month and doing them in batches makes doing the work more efficient. I can pull 6 necks in about an hour and rest them the next day. Some of my colleagues in CA pay 10 grand a month for rent and turn the martin authorized work away and I can understand the economic of that situation . |
|
| Author: | Hesh [ Wed Aug 10, 2022 3:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Regluing heel crack |
bluescreek wrote: That neck needs real attention. I suspect a loose joint started this. Once glued you do need to be sure to get the old glue out. I am not a fan of HHG when there are previous repairs and gapping. Yes dowel that neck and in this case my glue of choice would be west system or system 3 epoxy. They take a long time to cure and penetrate well into the cell . As for getting certified with Martin they became more picky in the last few years you have to submit a resume and work that you have done. You also need to be tied into a martin dealer. You also have to prove you know your stuff and be insured. it is worth the effort , the pay isn't the best but you can do alright. It brings in a lot of referral work We would not get in these days since we are not tied to a dealer, sounds kind of kinky but I digress....  If we had to be working for a music store or dealer we would close up shop. It is not in anyone's best interest to not have independent repair shops that are capable of and willing to be agnostic with brands and honest as the day is long with information and advice. Because of our volume though Martin warranty work is a very small percentage of our revenue maybe a couple percent tops but we appreciate the work, the company and Martin customers it's generally a good time to deal with them. There also are no other good choices in our area that are Martin certified beyond Elderly which is an excellent choice, always. |
|
| Author: | Pmaj7 [ Sat Oct 01, 2022 9:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Regluing heel crack |
Hi. Finally getting back to this as I had to shelf it for a while. Thanks for all the great advice! Sorry to not respond to everyone individually. Yes, this guitar was sort of a basket case from the beginning and had multiple issues. I'm planning to put a dowel through the heel for sure this time. There's been a few suggestions: 1.going through the fretboard, but wouldn't this limit my dowel size to .08"? Use two of them, one on each side of the truss rod? 2. Go through the heel. Assuming taking the heel cap off (heat?) and then putting it back on (& refinish?) or do you mean going through the bottom of the dovetail up through the heel? Pat |
|
| Author: | doncaparker [ Sat Oct 01, 2022 10:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Regluing heel crack |
If I am installing a dowel during construction, I put it in where the heel cap goes later in the process, and run it to where it comes out under where the fingerboard will go. Whether installing it on a finished guitar is a good idea, and how to do it if so, I would ask the repair professionals. |
|
| Author: | Pmaj7 [ Sat Oct 01, 2022 10:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Regluing heel crack |
Same here! A few people on this thread suggested it from both ways, so wanted to hear exactly what they were thinking. Pat |
|
| Author: | Barry Daniels [ Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Regluing heel crack |
The goal would be to hide it. Under heel cap would probably be the easy way. |
|
| Author: | Pmaj7 [ Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Regluing heel crack |
Yes, just seems like a lot of work heating the thing off, refinishing etc. Pat |
|
| Author: | bluescreek [ Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Regluing heel crack |
yes its a lot of work but as of now your guitar is worth about 25% of the value that repair would be about $600 A new neck about $1500 and you can't fix it properly with it on the guitar. |
|
| Author: | John Arnold [ Sun Oct 02, 2022 10:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Regluing heel crack |
A plastic heel cap does not require heat to remove. Simply insert a thin pallet knife, taking care that it doesn't dig into the wood. Finish touchup will be minor. Considering the ragged edge of the heel, I would remove the neck to do the repair, regardless of whether it will need a reset once the crack is closed. Definitely relocate the strap button. Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk |
|
| Page 1 of 2 | All times are UTC - 5 hours |
| Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/ |
|