Official Luthiers Forum!

Owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 5:29 pm


All times are UTC - 5 hours


Forum rules


Be nice, no cussin and enjoy!




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 36 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Nut position.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2023 6:13 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:44 am
Posts: 5398
First name: colin
Last Name: north
Country: Scotland.
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
How do you position your nuts?
All right, answers could be a little bit bawdy, but..
Do you cut the fretboard off at the template zero fret position, shortening the fretboard by half a kerf width?
Or leave that extra half a kerf length?

_________________
The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Nut position.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2023 6:37 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:50 pm
Posts: 2246
Location: Seattle WA
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
I have always done the half kerf philosophy. It's seemed to work for me.

Pat

_________________
Pat


Last edited by Pmaj7 on Tue Jan 24, 2023 8:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Nut position.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2023 6:56 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:59 pm
Posts: 3552
First name: Dennis
Last Name: Kincheloe
City: Kansas City
State: MO
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
3/32" short, for nut compensation. I used to cut through the zero fret. Half a kerf short is better than nothing, but the B string is never quite right without full nut compensation.



These users thanked the author DennisK for the post: Pmaj7 (Tue Jan 24, 2023 8:51 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Nut position.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2023 6:57 pm 
Online
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:52 pm
Posts: 2953
First name: Don
Last Name: Parker
City: Charleston
State: West Virginia
Zip/Postal Code: 25314
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Colin North wrote:
How do you position your nuts?


Gently.

Colin North wrote:
Do you cut the fretboard off at the template zero fret position, shortening the fretboard by half a kerf width?


Yes. No issues with intonation. In fact, it might help intonation a smidge for the fingerboard to be that half-kerf short.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Nut position.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2023 7:40 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:21 pm
Posts: 3290
Location: Alexandria MN
Half a kerf here.

_________________
It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Nut position.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2023 7:58 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:46 pm
Posts: 755
Location: Napa Valley
First name: David
Last Name: Foster
City: Napa
State: CA
Zip/Postal Code: 94558
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
With a tug and a pull.

_________________
https://www.instagram.com/fostinoguitars/
https://www.facebook.com/PuraVidaUkuleles/



These users thanked the author dofthesea for the post: Hesh (Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:44 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Nut position.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2023 8:26 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:14 am
Posts: 1011
Location: Newland, North Carolina
I've always cut the the 0 fret slot, and then trued the end of the fingerboard to the fretboard side of the fret slot. Guess that translates to half a fret kerf....

And my name is Ball....

Dave


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Nut position.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2023 8:55 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 7:15 pm
Posts: 7220
First name: Ed
Last Name: Bond
City: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
Another half kerfer here.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Nut position.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:47 pm 
Offline
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:49 am
Posts: 12971
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
First name: Hesh
Last Name: Breakstone
City: Ann Arbor
State: Michigan
Country: United States
Status: Professional
Thankfully gravity takes care of that for me.

_________________
Ann Arbor Guitars


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Nut position.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 2:52 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:44 am
Posts: 5398
First name: colin
Last Name: north
Country: Scotland.
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
DennisK wrote:
3/32" short, for nut compensation. I used to cut through the zero fret. Half a kerf short is better than nothing, but the B string is never quite right without full nut compensation.

Is that correctly typed?
3/32 I work out at 2.38 mm, that's almost 1/10", seems a lot?

_________________
The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.


Last edited by Colin North on Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Nut position.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 9:24 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 10:44 am
Posts: 6232
Location: Virginia
One more half kerf here.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Nut position.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 10:00 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:21 am
Posts: 3288
First name: Brad
Last Name: Combs
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
As a person cutting my fretboards on CNC, you guys are blowing my mind right now. Are you saying that I should be shortening the distance from nut to 1st fret slot by some amount? I don’t do this today. Should I be?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

_________________
Insta - https://www.instagram.com/cbcguitars/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/cbcguitars


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Nut position.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:26 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:12 am
Posts: 679
Location: United States
If you shorten the distance from the 0 fret to the 12th fret, won't this cause the saddle to be moved closer to the 12th fret as well, if you use 0 to 12 as a reference point for the distance from the 12th to the saddle? Or do you use the original 0 to 12 distance, before shortening the board, to determine the location of the saddle?
Asking for a friend.:>)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Nut position.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:14 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:20 am
Posts: 5924
Hi Brad,
Cutting the first fret short is a simple way to add some compensation at the nut. It improves the compensation between frets 1 to 12 a little bit. There are ways to better compensate the nut, but they get somewhat tedious, and also take into consideration the type of strings the player uses.
James Taylor did a video on tuning a guitar (with the typical uncompensated nut) where he tunes the open strings slightly flat a different number of "cents", depending on the string, to make the guitar play more in tune with itself. It helps compensate for string stiffness which makes the upper partials play sharp and some "string stretch" caused by fretting. Using this reasoning, by shortening the nut 3 cents you could tune the high e to pitch and flat the b 3cents, flat the g 1cent, flat the D 5cents, flat the A 7cents, and flat the E 9cents. By slanting the nut as we do the saddle, a further reduction in the flatting of the strings could be achieved, and by moving the break point of each individual string a fully compensated nut can be made.
To shorten the nut by 3 cents for a 25.4 inch S.L. (645mm) you would cut the fret board short about .042" (1mm) or about 3/64inches. Unfortunately real world parameters can throw things off a bit from the theoretical so most of us just cut - it - short a bit so we can - cut things short - a bit.
Anyway - here is a link to Mr. Taylor's video of the method he uses to make his Olson guitar play the way he likes it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2xnXArjPts&t=66s

Hi guitarjtb,
The original scale length should be used to figure the compensation at the saddle - the 12th fret should remain in its original position.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Nut position.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:55 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:36 am
Posts: 7241
Location: Southeast US
City: Lenoir City
State: TN
Zip/Postal Code: 37772
Country: US
Focus: Repair
Clay S. wrote:
Hi Brad,
Cutting the first fret short is a simple way to add some compensation at the nut. It improves the compensation between frets 1 to 12 a little bit. There are ways to better compensate the nut, but they get somewhat tedious, and also take into consideration the type of strings the player uses.
James Taylor did a video on tuning a guitar (with the typical uncompensated nut) where he tunes the open strings slightly flat a different number of "cents", depending on the string, to make the guitar play more in tune with itself. It helps compensate for string stiffness which makes the upper partials play sharp and some "string stretch" caused by fretting. Using this reasoning, by shortening the nut 3 cents you could tune the high e to pitch and flat the b 3cents, flat the g 1cent, flat the D 5cents, flat the A 7cents, and flat the E 9cents. By slanting the nut as we do the saddle, a further reduction in the flatting of the strings could be achieved, and by moving the break point of each individual string a fully compensated nut can be made.
To shorten the nut by 3 cents for a 25.4 inch S.L. (645mm) you would cut the fret board short about .042" (1mm) or about 3/64inches. Unfortunately real world parameters can throw things off a bit from the theoretical so most of us just cut - it - short a bit so we can - cut things short - a bit.
Anyway - here is a link to Mr. Taylor's video of the method he uses to make his Olson guitar play the way he likes it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2xnXArjPts&t=66s

Hi guitarjtb,
The original scale length should be used to figure the compensation at the saddle - the 12th fret should remain in its original position.


I've been using James Taylor's method of tuning on stage for years. It works, especially if, as I do, you have to do a lot of key changes during each set.

I also do a bit of nut compensation, usually around 0.030".

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Nut position.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:30 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:59 pm
Posts: 3552
First name: Dennis
Last Name: Kincheloe
City: Kansas City
State: MO
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Colin North wrote:
DennisK wrote:
3/32" short, for nut compensation. I used to cut through the zero fret. Half a kerf short is better than nothing, but the B string is never quite right without full nut compensation.

I that correctly typed?
3/32 I work out at 2.38 mm, that's almost 1/10", seems a lot?

Yep. The string is shortened from both ends compared to saddle-only compensation, so the 12th fretted note and harmonic still ring at equal pitch. The bridge has to be placed closer to the 12th fret than usual. I use the "typical steel string" compensation numbers from Trevor's book. Not sure if he'd be ok with me posting them here for free... that's the most valuable page of the book for me.
guitarjtb wrote:
If you shorten the distance from the 0 fret to the 12th fret, won't this cause the saddle to be moved closer to the 12th fret as well, if you use 0 to 12 as a reference point for the distance from the 12th to the saddle? Or do you use the original 0 to 12 distance, before shortening the board, to determine the location of the saddle?
Asking for a friend.:>)

I always measured from the 12th fret anyway, due to that half kerf discrepancy at the nut end. For example if using 25" scale, I will place the 12.5" mark of the ruler on the 12th fret. Then I can see where the center of the zero fret would be, and where the theoretical scale end would be.

Nut compensation does make it more difficult to measure the scale length on an unknown instrument. You have to measure the 1st fret to 13th fret and multiply by 12th root of 2. For example with 25" scale, the 1st fret is 1.403" and 13th fret is 13.202", so if you measure 1st to 13th you'll get 11.799". Then 11.799 x 1.0594631 = 12.5 (half the true scale length)


Last edited by DennisK on Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Nut position.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:34 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2007 2:45 pm
Posts: 1270
Location: Calgary, Canada
Status: Amateur
Since few have capitalized on the opportunity I say, low to the left. Levity, right? :)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Nut position.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 3:10 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:12 pm
Posts: 3290
First name: Bryan
Last Name: Bear
City: St. Louis
State: Mo
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Constantly.

Half kerf here.

_________________
Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Nut position.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:49 am 
Offline
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:49 am
Posts: 12971
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
First name: Hesh
Last Name: Breakstone
City: Ann Arbor
State: Michigan
Country: United States
Status: Professional
We put the nut at the end (the one with the headstock) of the fretboard.

_________________
Ann Arbor Guitars


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Nut position.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 7:36 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:21 am
Posts: 4839
Location: Central PA
First name: john
Last Name: hall
City: Hegins
State: pa
Zip/Postal Code: 17938
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
lets make this a bit more understandable.

To add the compensation at the nut you need to know your set up first.

What is your goal to action height?
What scale length?
How did you brace the top?
what is the neck relief?
what is the bridge compensation angle of the saddle?

So on an earlier post I stated about truing the fret board on the guitar and this is one of the reasons why

all the questions I just posted is about known variables on the top. in my experience 3/32 is way too much on a properly set up
fretboard.

so what can you realistically expect?
If your fretboard is not perfect your intonation won't be perfect and the compensation wont help at best you can do is a
good enough.

so you have to understand the entire fretboard is what is going to determine the compensation factor .
to worse the fretboard is the more compensation you need on both ends, so spend some time on the details
for the best end result.

the one thing I do after truing the fretboard is I allow a few days to let the guitar become a guitar. you can't do compensation on this
till the top settles in.

so here is my method that works for me,

I do about a half kerf

the first thing you do is adjust the neck relief and saddle . One trick is to use a sacrificial saddle. string the guitar up and have the
load of the strings on the top. 2 weeks should be about enough to get the top to settle in. Make your first adjustment the neck relief
fretting 1 and 13 you want to be about .004 off the 6th fret.
adjust the nut slot . I do .007 off the top of the frets. I have a gauge with a .007 notch on a .009 feeler gauge. The notch is about 3/8 long. I can rest this on the frets 1 and 2 I want the notch to enter the fret and the back of the notch to hit the nut.

So relief set nut slot set not we adjust the saddle . I like to do a 2 1/2 2 set up. I also will adjust the saddle to the point of a buzz. then see where it is at the action height. once I do this to all strings I now look at intonation.

I just don't do the 12 th fret. I want to see 5th 9th and 12th.

so first check the 12th. make an adjustment then check the 9th.
then the 5th
rememebr it is better to be a cent or 2 flat than sharp.

learning when to hit the nut is the trickiest part of this. so here I do the adjustment on the nut at the 5th fret.
you may have to do this a few times till you get it but it is worth the effort.

saddle width is also a part I like .094 saddles

this all starts with the fretboard. I also compensate the length on the glue up on the bridge. I have a video on the process.

there is a lot going on so learning the physics is important
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDKlmVkHDAU&t=72s

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it



These users thanked the author bluescreek for the post (total 2): Hesh (Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:06 am) • Colin North (Thu Jan 26, 2023 7:56 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Nut position.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 8:05 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:44 am
Posts: 5398
First name: colin
Last Name: north
Country: Scotland.
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
Quote:
"I do about a half kerf"

Thanks John. And all the others.
Seems quite common, and I remember Bob Taylor saying he does that also.

_________________
The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Nut position.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:09 am 
Offline
Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2020 7:19 pm
Posts: 41
Location: Houston, TX.
First name: Josh
Last Name: French
City: Houston
State: TX
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Some nut compensation is better than none, so the half kerf is a step in the right direction. Trevor Gore and Gerard Gilet cover nut compensation and intonation very extensively in their books. For classical guitars I shorten the distance between the nut and first fret by 1mm, and use Greg Byers method to compensate the nut and saddle.

_________________
Instagram: @jfrenchluthier



These users thanked the author jfrench79 for the post: Pmaj7 (Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:43 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Nut position.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:12 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:12 am
Posts: 679
Location: United States
Dennis:
"The bridge has to be placed closer to the 12th fret than usual."

This was also my assumption.

Clay:
"The original scale length should be used to figure the compensation at the saddle"

This would indicate that the bridge and saddle location are not affected by the nut compensation.

Could someone flip the light on for me?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Nut position.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:43 pm 
Online
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:52 pm
Posts: 2953
First name: Don
Last Name: Parker
City: Charleston
State: West Virginia
Zip/Postal Code: 25314
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I don't worry about it. I glue the bridge on without a saddle slot, string it up, then determine where the saddle has to sit for intonation to be just right (using temporary mini-saddles for each string), mark the locations, then rout the slot. This way, I don't have to sweat bridge location too much during gluing; ballpark is OK. It requires having enough open space on the bridge to cut the slot where it needs to be, a little this way or that way.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Nut position.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:49 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:12 am
Posts: 679
Location: United States
doncaparker wrote:
I don't worry about it. I glue the bridge on without a saddle slot, string it up, then determine where the saddle has to sit for intonation to be just right (using temporary mini-saddles for each string), mark the locations, then rout the slot. This way, I don't have to sweat bridge location too much during gluing; ballpark is OK. It requires having enough open space on the bridge to cut the slot where it needs to be, a little this way or that way.


Right. I slot my bridges after they are glued on. And I can get the saddle in the correct location, with temporary saddles. My question was on the theory of the measurement, from the 12th to the saddle, with a compensated nut.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 36 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: doncaparker, Ken Lewis, mikemcnerney, Stuart Flavell and 48 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com