Official Luthiers Forum!

I posted this query elsewhere Saturday night when this forum was unavailable.

A question for the committee: Does anyone know of a vendor who can provide 12-string nuts with the string positions marked and a notch started for each string? I use the nut layout presented in a commercial template (Luthier's Cool Tools) but it's up to me to accurately transfer the layout to the nut blank and start the cuts. It sure would be nice if some vendor could start the cuts for me if I provided a template of what I wanted and offered an agreeable bribe. Using a numerically-controlled process would sure be more accurate than pencil lines transferred off a printed sheet, too.

Thanks, folks.

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Peter Havriluk

No one offers this Peter and with good reason. Nuts really need to be as individual as guitars are.

All of ours are made custom for the individual instrument AND made on the individual instrument and even if a client brings us a Tusq pre-made nut and insists we install it we decline and will not work for them.

Instead we won't accept all the compromises involved in one-size-fits-all-and-never-really-does nuts. We prefer quality bone too over all other materials.

So what' wrong with making it yourself? It's just a stinkin nut with more slots. Unless of course it's for a Rik and you don't notice that Rik does 12 nuts substantially different from the rest of the world.

Making your own you get to use quality bone and craft a superb fit for tone transfer in the nut channel.

Anyway I've never heard or seen anything like what you describe available for sale and it may be that there in no market for it justifying the commercial investment and such.

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Ann Arbor Guitars

PS: Forgot to add that nut slot depth on a 12 is even more critical than a 6 string because of all the work the player has to do to overcome high nut slots on a 12. Another reason to craft your own and control the entire process.

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Ann Arbor Guitars

Hesh, thanks for speaking up. Making my own isn't a barrier. Been there, done that. Hence my question. I'm hoping to wind up with more precise spacing than I can get from a pencil and a machinist's square. To clarify my question, as I think there's some drift away from the center, no, i'm not asking for a magical nut telepathically cut for my instrument, but I'd love to find a nut blank with some CNC routed/lasercut/watercut 'starter' notches derived from an image I provided and that were scribed on the nut blank so as to avoid the errors, miniscule though I'm sure they would be, that arise from my pencilling lines on the nut as best I could by holding the nut against my template and dropping pencil lines on the nut. I'm guessing that such a laid-out and machine-scribed nut would save me half the time I'd spend making a nut (but what's so important about twenty minutes, anyway)? And completed string slots are in the hands of the builder, which as you mentioned, are living nightmares to get right on a 12-string.



Thanks again!

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Peter Havriluk

I've bought one in bone 48mm wide from ebay and used it successfully on a customer's build.
Just had to cut the slots quite a bit deeper than supplied, and also client wanted to swap the position of the octave strings.
Here's another 49mm wide. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/285273743830?hash=item426ba3e1d6:g:zh4AAOSwePFkV~FU&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4BTQjUBMHk%2Ft6Y%2F28ShJtg4pB7SZbdvRSNP98Uge1AHCYnrIlkQcoCSENI1Z5VQ3XvvcsVrduwj%2Bte98qLUoM639tKSlM8Wel5k1GQ1LPBtlowos%2Bjm00f2DAOacmPNzaInxIDFWVfhfMECWkO%2Bk6M5uJ6YzHEFwliAySyu9Aa0TNeUgXqaPzMpajop4XS2%2BZwOr2njjxjpOGABxXlzLKJklnTvO9qsqaWuFO78q9wYlsxjskjpUhgKv4kfc91J4J1LuI%2BFtzsnSOPMES8OlYZdzV9nTTwyeLdoqVoZvlnKW%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR_b83LiDYg
Graph Tech also do TUSQ XL 12 String Slotted Nut in white and in black.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

All necks are a little different width with varying fret bevels so there is no one nut slot layout that will work on all necks. Just have to bite the bullet and custom make them if you want it right.

I have found that marking the slot positions on a nut is more accurate if you use a sharp awl instead of a pencil. The awl scratch is mechanical guide for starting the nut file. However, I still recheck the slot position after it is first started and lean the file right or left if a small lateral adjustment is necessary.

I use a feather edge file to start nut slots. Very accurate, knife edged file. 2, 3 swipes and it's done.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/111041825548?h ... R4aghLuDYg

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

The bonus, IMO, (nothing against Hesh’s nuts), is that TUSQ actually sounds way, way better than bone.

https://graphtech.com/products/tusq-nut ... -12-string

That said, you can actually bring the courses closer to themselves than you usually see, both at the nut and at the bridge…

I hear ya Peter but in the process of making a nut the slots are brought down ever lower, gradually while retaining spacing. This is also an opportunity correct spacing.

More specifically when I make a nut regardless of what kind of nut as I bring the slots down about every two times I file something I check my spacing against the wonderful StewMac nut spacing ruler. I often find I drifted this way or that way and by measuring frequently I can correct and remeasure as I proceed.

My nuts... are crafted on the exact instrument as mentioned but also not mentioned is the instrument is strung and tuned to pitch before I cut a single slot.

Here comes a post that some may notice is very useful and others will exclaim I paid $600 to learn that and it freakin works...

Fit the nut so that glue is not required to hold it in place. The nut is filed on the guitar and the tuned strings hold it all in place. We mark the nut with the SM ruler. We score the mark we made to help keep the files in place and then we lightly file the beginning of the slots.

Then a string gets put on and tuned to pitch and the slot is continued. We take it 80% or so home. Eventually all strings are on and I frequently remeasure the slot locations against the ruler as I go because this affords me an opportunity to "walk my slots" left or right and continue the level of high precision that I seek.

With all this said you can see in this actual process a prescored nut would not insure precision on a final product, that's what you and I are for.....

Some more information that some here will likely value. Takes me about 2 hours to make a nut AND set up the guitar. 1.25 hours are mostly nut. I'm not fast or slow at it just the process is involved.

We had a client who passed rest in peace but he was a nationally known Professional Luthier with some famous clients. He asked me to make him a special 12 string nut with a slightly different take on spacing which was his secret sauce when he was producing these and his hands did not shake. Pulled it off great he told me he was thrilled and I was forever sworn to secrecy on what his secret sauce was. I will respect that too he was in the end my friend.

Point being his special requirement were possible because we produced from scratch and had a process to make nuts that permitted course corrections along the way although it does take extra time to check precision along the way. I believe that these things, specifically the ability to correct along the way are key to a great nut.

If I recall his nut creation took me three hours but that what it takes so that's what I did. 12's obviously have more slots, more hazards, etc.

Anyway not to be overly pedantic if you were here in my shop I would suggest this instead:

If lacking of precision in marking the nut is an issue use the finest mechanical pencil you can find the .005" works for me. Sharpen the pencil even though it's a mechanical pencil. Both Dave and I keep 220 paper stapled to our vices to sharpen mechanical pencils

Sharpen and mark with the pencil then immediately check with the SM ruler. If satisfied you can score the marks with a razor saw or an actual gauged nut file. I use a .013 for high e, b, g. I use a .016 for the rest.

Scoring with a file is easy if you learn to use your less dominant hand thumb as a "fence of sorts..." for the file to slide against.

Anyway I still encourage you to make your own and the reality is you likely will have to. So with that said my friend I hope something that I spilled the beans on here today will help you and others.

Happy Mothers Day to everyone including the Mothers Of Invention

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Ann Arbor Guitars

Prove it?

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Ann Arbor Guitars

Besides what Barry said that I completely agree with here are the reasons why a commercially purchased nut is not superior to an individually crafted bone nut:

1). You have to fit the nut properly to the channel with no advantage here of an OTSN (off the shelf nut).

2). You have to cut the slots on both too, no advantage here either.

3). Any precision in the slots from an OTSN is lost to some extend as the slots deepen and you are controlling things, same as hand crafting, no advantage.

4). As the slots come down excess material will be or may be proud of the string tops you have to remove it from either nut here as well.

But to me the biggest reason why I make custom made bone nuts individually for the guitar is that I am a Professional Luthier and people come to me for me to do this. They have an expectation that I'm not opening a package or waiting for Amazon (no offense to hobbyists or anyone intended).

One of the first things they teach in every Luthier school I know is how to make a proper nut. And it's not easy either to make a great nut.

The Gallup school according to Dave Collins who went there and then taught there will tell you it will take you about 100 nuts to even begin to get really good at it. I would suggest we are all different of course.

So why is Hesh so "on the nut" about making your own dang nuts.

Because this is the LUTHIER'S Forum that's why . We make stuff here, damkit!!!! When Mario P. needed a cool pick-guard he learned to pour his own!!! Dennis has been educating us on making his own tuners.

We don't "buy" no stinking nut here baby

Incoming expected I'm home sick with Covid so bring it on everything already hurts.... Ed you're kidding right

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Ann Arbor Guitars

Alas, such feats are impossible…:)

I can’t believe we’re still having this conversation in 2023. Surely by now everyone knows that a brass nut with graphtechXL inlaid in the slots and a stainless zero fret sounds the best???

Either you're joking, or you fell for their marketing BS.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

First of all, let’s start with one basic concept: Are you having the string spaced so there’s equal spaces between the strings, or dividing the strings up evenly with uneven spaces between the strings?
The Stew Mac ruler does equal spacing between the strings. That’s how I prefer to do it.
What I do whether it’s a six or a 12 string that is after I get my marks, then I use a razor saw to start the slot then I use my digital micrometer to keep things on track constantly checking and adjusting as I file.


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here is how I make a 12 string nut
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9O_-zTGFtg4&t=47s

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Not familiar with the Luthier’s Cool Tools, tool, but I’ve used the Stewmac proportional template on almost every nut I’ve ever cut, including 12 strings. SM has an article here:
https://www.stewmac.com/video-and-ideas/online-resources/learn-about-guitar-nut-and-saddle-setup-and-repair/using-the-string-spacing-rule-for-guitars-and-mandolins/


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Hesh, my gratitude again. What an education! Onward!

Brad, the template I'm using provides for (1) 5 same-size air gaps between each of the 6 pairs and (2) same size air gaps within each pair, .078" for the 'e' and 'b' pairs, and .093 air gap between pairs for the four other pairs. The vendor calculated the spacing/sizing using the same string dimensions as on the strings I initially I intend to use.

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Peter Havriluk

For repair guys - nuts, frets, and bridges are our meat and taters. The rest revolves around that trio.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Worth noting plenty of brand new axes, fresh from the factory, seem to sport nuts that are either a little too wide or too narrow for the neck at the end of the fretboard. So even some of the zillion dollar NASA-engineered CNC neck carving robots can’t get prefabbed nuts to work as a drop-in solution.

The Stewmac nut ruler can't be beat for this kind of thing, It works really well especially if you thin out the pencil tip, or get a mechanical pencil that fits, into the slots of the ruler. Just lay it on there and mark it out. It's almost fool proof.

I agree with others who just say go for it. Every nut is unique.

I've suggested several times here to use a sharp awl with the ruler. It leaves a scratch in the bone that the file will sit in and be guided by. Eliminates error. If you can't see the scratch on the nut just rub a pencil into the groove. Please try it and see if you find it as useful as I do.

Possibly a stupid question - which edge of the feather-edge file is used to start the slot? I'm with Peter H - as a newbie trying to cut nuts, getting the slots started in the right spot is the most frustrating part. I tried a scribe, which marked a line but my files still wanted to wander out of it. I about drove myself crazy measuring space between strings and between courses on a mandolin nut...got a usable piece on my third try, but one slot is half a hair too low so I need to get cracking again.

The file that Chris linked to is like a knife edge on both sides so it would not matter. I think some 'feather edge' files for sharpening saws are flat on one side but again it basically makes a knife point. I simply use a Exacto saw to start the slots.

The trick is to very lightly do all slots then look at them, measure again, then cut accordingly. Sometimes if you slip up but leave plenty of space you can angle the cut over and get it right. Then when you sand off he top of the nut it all goes away anyway. So leave plenty of room to work with, go slow, and you will get it right.