Official Luthiers Forum! :: View topic - Hesh's New Participation Philosophy

In appreciation of all the help received here, even though I’ve always used my first name, I added my surname to my profile (I think). Although it took me a while to figure out how to do it!

I’ve been, as mentioned earlier, pretty much a taker so far but as I build and learn more, which seems to be 90% from figuring out how to fix mistakes or avoid them, I hope to be more of a giver in the future.

Thx Hesh and all. Your expertise and sharing makes this what it is.

Jon

Jeez, I sure hope I'm not among these people as I've always held you in high regard. But, I can on occasion be a bit sarcastic, more tongue in cheek. I also don't immediately follow all advice given, I think that's natural. It's usually not until I've made the mistake that I think I should have paid more attention. I suppose there are quite a few wondering if they may have been the ones to earn your scorn. idunno

Yours truly
Richard K Hutchings.

thats why I stopped posting here

There’s one on every forum that thinks the forum will die if they walk away. Hesh, you've walked away at least twice since the forum inception because of silliness, maybe three times and have always come back.
Walk again…..this forum will survive and perhaps thrive without you.

I know I can do without your philosophical treatises.

Tom Armstrong
Member from waaayback.

Hesh,
Humans are basically evil, and it often takes a lot more effort for many of us to play nice than it does to cause trouble. I don't hang out here much because I just don't build anymore, at least for now. Maybe after I retire and am done fixing all the issues with my house.
I feel the pain of losing one's parents, and it certainly does change a person.
Peace to you my friend...

User Control Panel has a "Manage Friends & Foes" feature, I just used it.
I personally value Hesh's knowledge, experience, disagreements and his willingness to share.

Put 10 luthiers in a room and you might get 11 different ideas about the best way to do something.

That doesn't make open discussion of process and methods easy. Add professionals to the mix and it can effect bread on the table. So you start out with a strike against pros even wanting to participate in forums from the get go. Add that answering questions on a forum can take away from productive shop time. That's probably why there is such a small percentage of pros offering tech support on forums like this. They have a lot more to lose than gain by hanging out here answering our questions.

With that in mind it makes sense to treat constructive posts respectfully, especially when it is coming from pros, even if the advise may not work for you.

It does need to go both ways though because even pros don't know everything nor are they always right, and certainly there are multiple ways to accomplish a task.

To me it boils down to simply being polite and respectful, it isn't that hard.

Personal attacks, and vendettas just don't work for anyone's benefit. I've been on other forums where repeated disrespect by a few bad actors drove the most prolific high quality posters right off the forum to everyone's loss.

It's really a lot easier to be nice, and you'll sleep better too. How hard is it to say, "I've had much better luck with XYZ, because.....", and instead of, "you'd have to be an idiot to.....".

Folks like John Hall and Hesh and many others here are why I stop by every day. It would suck to lose those folks who come here to SHARE as much as they do.

Brian

Author:	Hesh [ Wed Apr 10, 2024 5:29 am ]
Post subject:	Hesh's New Participation Philosophy
So it had to happen ole Hesh here unselfishly helping folks for years and years while occasionally getting attacked by members here who either won't and don't use their real, complete names even when they claim to be an industry professional.... or others who only come out of their sewer.... when they want to pile on or be part of a dispute. We are guests here in the House That Lance Built so please have the class..., professionalism and human decency to act like a guest. If you can't do that stay the hell away from me. Some of the very few of you and I really only mean two people who qualify for my description above are just not very smart or don't understand history. I've been a target to be run off this forum for years since around 2007 and if you do not understand by now that Hesh does not give in to terrorism.... you are one dumb sob.... Now that I am getting older but still very good looking.... with no malice in my heart I hereby declare the following: Hesh will no longer help or respond to anyone who does not use their real name on this forum. Additionally if the only value..... you can add and a high percentage of your posts are ONLY when there is a dispute you no longer matter to me and should not matter to anyone who values a civil forum and most importantly the cause.... The cause of sharing valid, useful, important Lutherie information in the spirt of sharing AND being kind to each other. This, the cause of sharing valid, useful, important Lutherie information in the spirit of sharing and giving and being kind to each other is why I am here and will remain here as long as I wish and as long as my friend and OUR HOST Lance will have me. There is a grey area, people who don't use your real names but you have been here and I have interacted with you before and may even know you and your real names nothing will change, I am happy to help and interact with you. I would suggest, kindly though that using a real name does have benefits it is kind of hard to have a serious conversation with someone who calls themself heavymetalvomitdude.... As for me I'm going to try to do better and by better I mean be kinder to folks here but again only the ones that I interact with and again I will only from now on interact with people either using their real names or sending me a PM or who I already know from prior interaction. So if you start a dispute please don't expect me to respond you are on your own and as Lance says you will have to stand by your own words (that's in the forum rules BTW). If you post to attack me or further a potential dispute and you are such a snowflake that you won't use your real name or even if you do use your real name but your motivated as described (ill intent) in this sentence you will no longer receive a response from me. Silence is golden as they say. Your words and ill intent will stand out, unaddressed by me as who and what you are not me. Shame on me for not doing this sooner. If you are in the category that you don't use your real name but you have no ill intent and you would like some help from me please PM me and I am always happy to help. I may jump in anyway even if you don't PM me if I know who you are, have interacted with you prior AND most importantly I have something to add that adds value or asks an important question. I am again here to help I just no longer will be willing to take the cheap shots of the fakes and phonies here.... They are now on their own. Sadly this means that others who enjoy reading posts of someone who actually works in the trade nearly every day may have less to enjoy and learn from. I'll add that nothing ever stopped any of you from policing your own forum if you value what you receive here. A few of you already do this and one of you is very skilled at it, Brad. It would be welcomed by me if all of you stood up for common decency and treating each other with the utmost respect at all times. How nice that would be! To be clear we can disagree and we NEED to disagree at times. It's OK to attack an idea of someone else that is flawed but it's not OK to personally attack the person. That's why I am doing this I have been personally attacked as a person far too many times and only by less than a handful of people with two of them standing out. To those who use your real names, thank you it is much appreciated. To Lance thanks for the forum. Peace

Author:	Duct Tape [ Wed Apr 10, 2024 6:56 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Hesh's New Participation Philosophy
In appreciation of all the help received here, even though I’ve always used my first name, I added my surname to my profile (I think). Although it took me a while to figure out how to do it! I’ve been, as mentioned earlier, pretty much a taker so far but as I build and learn more, which seems to be 90% from figuring out how to fix mistakes or avoid them, I hope to be more of a giver in the future. Thx Hesh and all. Your expertise and sharing makes this what it is. Jon

Author:	banjopicks [ Wed Apr 10, 2024 7:48 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Hesh's New Participation Philosophy
Jeez, I sure hope I'm not among these people as I've always held you in high regard. But, I can on occasion be a bit sarcastic, more tongue in cheek. I also don't immediately follow all advice given, I think that's natural. It's usually not until I've made the mistake that I think I should have paid more attention. I suppose there are quite a few wondering if they may have been the ones to earn your scorn. Yours truly Richard K Hutchings.

Author:	bluescreek [ Wed Apr 10, 2024 8:43 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Hesh's New Participation Philosophy
thats why I stopped posting here

Author:	Hesh [ Wed Apr 10, 2024 11:16 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Hesh's New Participation Philosophy
Duct Tape wrote: In appreciation of all the help received here, even though I’ve always used my first name, I added my surname to my profile (I think). Although it took me a while to figure out how to do it! I’ve been, as mentioned earlier, pretty much a taker so far but as I build and learn more, which seems to be 90% from figuring out how to fix mistakes or avoid them, I hope to be more of a giver in the future. Thx Hesh and all. Your expertise and sharing makes this what it is. Jon Jon thanks a million I really appreciate you and sorry for the extra effort required. It's a shame that people playing games with others here are causing this to be necessary. When I was new to the forum nearly 20 years ago I had to learn the hard way that none of us have the right to pee in the collective canteen so-to-speak and create an unpleasant experience for others. Learning Lutherie and participating on the forum should be both fun.... and.... safe for all. My apologies and again I appreciate you very much.

Official Luthiers Forum! https://luthiersforum.com/forum/

Hesh's New Participation Philosophy https://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=56513	Page 1 of 3

Author:	Hesh [ Wed Apr 10, 2024 11:26 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Hesh's New Participation Philosophy
banjopicks wrote: Jeez, I sure hope I'm not among these people as I've always held you in high regard. But, I can on occasion be a bit sarcastic, more tongue in cheek. I also don't immediately follow all advice given, I think that's natural. It's usually not until I've made the mistake that I think I should have paid more attention. I suppose there are quite a few wondering if they may have been the ones to earn your scorn. Yours truly Richard K Hutchings. Hutch you are fine and I consider you a friend so no problem. What I speak of is primarily two people who only seem to show up in a thread when there is a dispute. A search of the history here will shine a light on my assertion. One is not using their real name and claims to be a professional. Of course my peers and I want to know who this person is and if they really know what they are talking about. So if I offer some criticism to someone of which honest critique is how I learned I don't think I am a sadistic pos that enjoys being mean to any one these two show up in the thread and like monkeys at the zoo... sling feces at me and one of them makes personal remarks about and to me. I just lost my Mom a few months ago and it changed me. I am struggling because this was the last of my family and I'm now of the mindset that I refuse to eat crap anymore. Especially when I come here to help others. I would like to see moderation and I was the only moderator that the forum ever had. It was thankless and I would not do it again but we really need moderation when some fool can defame someone here and nothing is done. Do you know the last time I learned anything from being here? I can't recall it's been a very long time my participation is very one sided and for years. At times in the past others have reached the end of their ropes when they see me being targeted and have attacked the offenders. That has not happened for a while. The real solution is if someone does not like me or anyone leave them/me the hell alone and move on. None of us have the right to create an unpleasant atmosphere for others here. So Richard, Hutch thanks for your comments and giving a dang you are fine and I appreciate you and apologize to you too that any of this even had to be brought up.

Author:	Hesh [ Wed Apr 10, 2024 11:42 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Hesh's New Participation Philosophy
bluescreek wrote: thats why I stopped posting here I know my dear friend and I don't accept this you should fight back like I am going to do. We need you, I learned A LOT from you and also consider you a friend, a dear friend. Folks like you and I have shingles hung in the public space and an Internet dispute with a person intent on defaming us can hurt how we feed our families and in my case myself.... now. So it needs to stop and others who read this John is not the first pro Luthier to find the lack of moderation on the OLF damaging to us and our businesses. I can name over a dozen well known pro luthiers who no longer post here because of the BS with a few people thinking that they know far more than they do and being disrespectful to others here again in the public view. There is a long running personal beef being exercised here in both cases that I cited by the way and it is personal which also means the rules are being broken when this happens. In 2010 I set out to survey pro luthiers because I know many of them personally and I wanted to know why they left the OLF. In all cases and out of a couple dozen surveyed the answer was the same - no moderation AND in the case of the pros like you John and I it can take food off our tables when someone here defames us or causes us to have to defend ourselves personally and create an unpleasant situation. We are remembered for forum fights not the quality and desirability of the guitars that we craft or repair. John please watch what results from this it's my sincere hope that you will find that you can reconsider and participate here. You also were instrumental, pardon the pun in building the OLF to what it is today in the good sense.... and you deserve to be safe and sound here too. John was here from the beginning folks and he's always helped all of us including me. Let's push back John we are on the side of civility and that has to appeal to most folks. To everyone else you are actually being harmed the very most. The quality and quantity of pro level information that you came here for is severely limited and the old expression "breathing one's own air" is now in play. New voices are always a good thing in any informational forum and we don't get that here with other pros because it's dangerous for pros to participate when there is no consequence when someone attacks someone personally and nothing is done. Two of the most highly contributing members ever who really walk the walk so to speak also left the forum for the same reason that I am citing and John is not participating because of, Mario P. and Rick Turner RIP. Thanks as always John maybe I can take a road trip and come see you.

Author:	Gasawdust [ Wed Apr 10, 2024 12:48 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Hesh's New Participation Philosophy
There’s one on every forum that thinks the forum will die if they walk away. Hesh, you've walked away at least twice since the forum inception because of silliness, maybe three times and have always come back. Walk again…..this forum will survive and perhaps thrive without you. I know I can do without your philosophical treatises. Tom Armstrong Member from waaayback.

Author:	meddlingfool [ Wed Apr 10, 2024 2:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Hesh's New Participation Philosophy
Unkind and uncalled for.

Author:	Chris Pile [ Wed Apr 10, 2024 2:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Hesh's New Participation Philosophy
Tom... shame on you. I never took you for a guy who would kick a man when he's down.

Author:	Duct Tape [ Wed Apr 10, 2024 2:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Hesh's New Participation Philosophy
bluescreek wrote: thats why I stopped posting here John. I’ve learned a lot from your videos and have benefited from quite a few purchases too. I look forward to hopefully seeing your expertise shared here too. Jon

Author:	Darrel Friesen [ Wed Apr 10, 2024 3:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Hesh's New Participation Philosophy
I certainly hear what you're saying Hesh. I didn't participate here for many years after calling out a few know it all bullies here. Thankfully they also disappeared but other fools do tend to step in to fill in the blanks. I try to ignore or block those types but am always ready for giving or receiving a verbal pummeling if I deem it necessary. I appreciate you and your contributions and know that the majority of those on the forum do as well.

Author:	Colin North [ Wed Apr 10, 2024 3:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Hesh's New Participation Philosophy
Gasawdust wrote: There’s one on every forum that thinks the forum will die if they walk away. Hesh, you've walked away at least twice since the forum inception because of silliness, maybe three times and have always come back. Walk again…..this forum will survive and perhaps thrive without you. I know I can do without your philosophical treatises. Tom Armstrong Member from waaayback. And how much of a contributor to the OLF are you yourself? 164 posts in ten years, good going, another little ray of sunshine to brighten everyone's day..

Author:	Clay S. [ Wed Apr 10, 2024 3:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Hesh's New Participation Philosophy
It helps to have a well oiled thick skin when posting to forums, so the insults and misunderstandings can slide right off your back. Rudeness for rudeness sake is not very nice, and reflects on the poster rather than the one posted about. A few unkind words can make people who have much to offer reluctant to participate (professional and amateur alike). Still, I'm not a fan of moderators - I think they often see their view points as the only valid ones and stifle other points of view. I remember one incident on a different forum many years ago, where a participant sent an e-mail to other members offering the services of a new business they were starting and was immediately banned for "spamming" the community. Personally, I was happy to have that information, and thought that was a bit draconian. Luckily that person found another place to contribute and has added so much to the lutherie community. As one of my favorite YouTube used car salesmen says "Words are Hard"

Page 1 of 3	All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/

Author:	Don Williams [ Thu Apr 11, 2024 9:57 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Hesh's New Participation Philosophy
Hesh, Humans are basically evil, and it often takes a lot more effort for many of us to play nice than it does to cause trouble. I don't hang out here much because I just don't build anymore, at least for now. Maybe after I retire and am done fixing all the issues with my house. I feel the pain of losing one's parents, and it certainly does change a person. Peace to you my friend...

Author:	SteveSmith [ Thu Apr 11, 2024 10:21 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Hesh's New Participation Philosophy
Don Williams wrote: Hesh, Humans are basically evil, and it often takes a lot more effort for many of us to play nice than it does to cause trouble. I don't hang out here much because I just don't build anymore, at least for now. Maybe after I retire and am done fixing all the issues with my house. I feel the pain of losing one's parents, and it certainly does change a person. Peace to you my friend... Well said Don.

Author:	Kbore [ Thu Apr 11, 2024 10:50 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Hesh's New Participation Philosophy
User Control Panel has a "Manage Friends & Foes" feature, I just used it. I personally value Hesh's knowledge, experience, disagreements and his willingness to share.

Author:	Hesh [ Thu Apr 11, 2024 11:48 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Hesh's New Participation Philosophy
Don Williams wrote: Hesh, Humans are basically evil, and it often takes a lot more effort for many of us to play nice than it does to cause trouble. I don't hang out here much because I just don't build anymore, at least for now. Maybe after I retire and am done fixing all the issues with my house. I feel the pain of losing one's parents, and it certainly does change a person. Peace to you my friend... Hey Don!! Thanks for coming back to share your thoughts with us and especially me. I've been wondering how you are doing. My Williams's jig is at our shop in Ann Arbor. I don't build anymore either but I sure appreciated you and still do. I was thinking of taking up sailing again and that reminded me of you and the yacht racing rules book You and I also had a love Honduran Rosewood and how it's a dang near dead ring tone wise for BRW. Thanks for weighing in my friend.

Author:	Hesh [ Thu Apr 11, 2024 12:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Hesh's New Participation Philosophy
Kbore wrote: User Control Panel has a "Manage Friends & Foes" feature, I just used it. I personally value Hesh's knowledge, experience, disagreements and his willingness to share. Karl this is a good idea. You can basically put someone on ignore if they bother you. Great suggestion and thank You!!!

Author:	rbuddy [ Thu Apr 11, 2024 12:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Hesh's New Participation Philosophy
Put 10 luthiers in a room and you might get 11 different ideas about the best way to do something. That doesn't make open discussion of process and methods easy. Add professionals to the mix and it can effect bread on the table. So you start out with a strike against pros even wanting to participate in forums from the get go. Add that answering questions on a forum can take away from productive shop time. That's probably why there is such a small percentage of pros offering tech support on forums like this. They have a lot more to lose than gain by hanging out here answering our questions. With that in mind it makes sense to treat constructive posts respectfully, especially when it is coming from pros, even if the advise may not work for you. It does need to go both ways though because even pros don't know everything nor are they always right, and certainly there are multiple ways to accomplish a task. To me it boils down to simply being polite and respectful, it isn't that hard. Personal attacks, and vendettas just don't work for anyone's benefit. I've been on other forums where repeated disrespect by a few bad actors drove the most prolific high quality posters right off the forum to everyone's loss. It's really a lot easier to be nice, and you'll sleep better too. How hard is it to say, "I've had much better luck with XYZ, because.....", and instead of, "you'd have to be an idiot to.....". Folks like John Hall and Hesh and many others here are why I stop by every day. It would suck to lose those folks who come here to SHARE as much as they do. Brian

Author:	meddlingfool [ Thu Apr 11, 2024 1:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Hesh's New Participation Philosophy
I would also argue that pro’s won’t get much OUT of this forum, even if they put a lot IN. Be nice, no cussing, and enjoy. Not so hard.

Author:	Mike_P [ Thu Apr 11, 2024 8:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Hesh's New Participation Philosophy
d00d...you either need more or less of that green mother nature stuff... bad morning? I mean really, you get up earlier than I do...perhaps waking and baking might be the cure?

Author:	Smylight [ Thu Apr 11, 2024 8:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Hesh's New Participation Philosophy
I'm with you Hesh. I'm also very sorry to learn that John decided to keep away. You have become dear friends over the years although we've never met in person. Everyone here knows you've given way more than you could ever take from the place. I for one know you've helped me numerous times and I truly feel nothing but gratefulness for this. Pierre Guitares Torvisse

Author:	Chris Pile [ Thu Apr 11, 2024 8:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Hesh's New Participation Philosophy
Drugs or drink don't make the problem go away - they just prolong dealing with it.

Author:	Hesh [ Thu Apr 11, 2024 11:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Hesh's New Participation Philosophy
rbuddy wrote: Put 10 luthiers in a room and you might get 11 different ideas about the best way to do something. That doesn't make open discussion of process and methods easy. Add professionals to the mix and it can effect bread on the table. So you start out with a strike against pros even wanting to participate in forums from the get go. Add that answering questions on a forum can take away from productive shop time. That's probably why there is such a small percentage of pros offering tech support on forums like this. They have a lot more to lose than gain by hanging out here answering our questions. With that in mind it makes sense to treat constructive posts respectfully, especially when it is coming from pros, even if the advise may not work for you. It does need to go both ways though because even pros don't know everything nor are they always right, and certainly there are multiple ways to accomplish a task. To me it boils down to simply being polite and respectful, it isn't that hard. Personal attacks, and vendettas just don't work for anyone's benefit. I've been on other forums where repeated disrespect by a few bad actors drove the most prolific high quality posters right off the forum to everyone's loss. It's really a lot easier to be nice, and you'll sleep better too. How hard is it to say, "I've had much better luck with XYZ, because.....", and instead of, "you'd have to be an idiot to.....". Folks like John Hall and Hesh and many others here are why I stop by every day. It would suck to lose those folks who come here to SHARE as much as they do. Brian Thanks Brian I completely agree and I'll add that even folks with professional experience like John and I have a duty to be respectful of everyone it goes both ways. I know a lot about the history of the OLF being the one with the biggest mouth here.... in OLF history with by far the most postings. We have lost countless pro luthiers here over the years and they nearly always leave mad and upset that they were not treated respectfully. I posted about this on my Facebook page where I am in touch with perhaps a dozen such people, former OLFers, people with as much or more experience than me and all of them wondering why it's taking me so long to quit here and shield myself from the abuse.... Maybe I'm simple minded but I was taught that when someone does a kindness for me I have a duty to return said kindness. When I joined the OLF many experienced folks reached out to me and helped me in huge ways. Guitar building was a LOT of fun in the early days with this level of support and the OLF became my number one source of information and Lutherie education. Back then someone who had made the transition from say being a corporate executive what I once was to a guitar builder had much more support than you folks do these days. We got together in person too and knew each other on more personal levels and that helps a lot with civility by the way. Once you know someone personally and have met them it's far easier at least for me to be able to translate words on a forum with a kindness filter from personal knowledge of the person if you will. But most of all there were not these little girl games, no offense intended to women or little girls. Games where people intentionally obscure who they are and are only here to attack someone when the opportunity arrises and the wind blows in favor of ..... piling on. That's what's been happening to me for years now and many people are aware of it and have commented privately and even sometimes publicly about it. So I'm older now and very sad lately for a long time now and it's finally gotten to me and I just don't want to be treated this badly any more. The OLF has always been important to me and a bit of light in a pretty lonely life. Many here are friends as you can see in this thread and that means a lot to me. With al this said I'm going to do better but I'm no longer going to respond to the attacks and BS. I'm also not leaving and even more determined to never, never give in to terrorism. I do wish there was moderation here as well but I don't see that changing Lance has a business model that he thinks works for him and I respect that. I'm also grateful to Lance, know him personally, have been to his home etc. Lastly I actually know why many of the folks with the most experience to offer left because I actually asked them and published the results on this forum several times in the past. It was potential fall out from Internet disputes in the public domain that go south here when they, when we have a public face where we make our livings from this trade. Flame pros, flame me and if I respond poorly I may lose customers... Most of you here do not have this risk. On the other hand my business partner once placed a political statement on a receipt from our business as a joke and it was posted on Facebook someplace without our knowledge. Over night our phone lit up and our voice mail filled up with death threats and messages where people claimed the chip that Obama put in their head was telling them to destroy us.... We could not stop laughing at times. Some of the death threats were pretty descriptive and reminded me of Hemmingway's writings We received around 40 one star reviews from people of a specific political persuasion all whom had never been our clients, were not even hundreds of miles from us and likely did not not even play guitar. They were simply triggered by the altered, posted receipt intended as a political joke. Google would not take the fake reviews down they remain to this day around 10 years later now..... When we let it known that this was happening to us many of our clients attacked the fakes and phonies and also left us five star reviews. The fake reviews were the only non-five-star reviews our business has ever received from anyone who was actually a customer and on the level. We have had over 400 real five star reviews and are very proud of this. I tracked an increase in our business for about a year after this happened. I posted about it on the OLF back then and many here helped us too with positive reviews. With this said we lived the very nightmare that is the primary reason why the pros left the OLF, something happens with hostilities on the Internet and it follows us to our business and how we feed our families, those who have families. We have skin in the game so to speak and when we get in a dispute here and someone attacks us as human beings it can result in less business. It also in our case can be a boon...... Maybe we need to post that offending receipt again Brian you are a pleasure and thanks for your posts I've learned from you.