Official Luthiers Forum!

Good Afternoon,

What, in your opinions, is the best tonewood material for a high end classical guitar bridges.

Thank you,

Ray

_________________
Guitar Building = Continuous Improvement Process

Most would say Brazilian Rosewood, without hesitation. I used it on my first, and it was very good. I used Cocobolo on my second, and it was good too. With Coco, though, you have to watch the weight. There are other good woods too, but some of the other rosewoods are the best. Some use Ebony, but others say it has too much damping for a classical. I don't know, but I figure I come out with a better chance of a good guitar if I stay away from anything with a question mark by it. Madegascar Rosewood also gets high marks for classical bridges.

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

As Waddy said BRW is the wood of choice 99 times out of a hundred, I'm tempted to say that the other 1 would be Rio rosewood, but if I'm honest it would be Madagascan rosewood. EIR can be used, and some have used Padauk, but you did say high end giutar so yes that would be BRW. (Made two today, bridges that is not high end guitars))

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

I love Braz.wood for bridges.
BUT there are less weight woods that will make a great bridge & maybe a better sounding guitar.
Walnut ,Indian R.W.,Maple,Imbuia,Myrtle,-weight is important.

The ability to resist string pull is only important if the bridge design is optimum in this area.

Mc

_________________
Mike Collins

Hey Guys

I beg to differ a bit, but of the many high end classical guitars that I have either tried, looked at or worked on in my shop, I would say that it is a fairly even split between Brazilian and East Indian Rosewood. I have seen a of case where the builder stated that he uses Brazilian, but after a bit of prodding he admited that "oh, I may have used East Indian on that one..." Both can be finished to look very much alike but the fact is that simply stating that you use only Brazilian for your bridges has a definite impact on the mind of the buyer. In reality, I would be a bit surprised if 10% (or even 5%) of all guitar players could tell the sound differences between the 2 in a well conducted blind test.

In a recent recent GAL Convention (see GAL Magazine of Spring 2009), this question was put on a panel of experts: Brazilian and East Indian came out pretty much even. Most agreed that weight and design are the more important concerns.

I use East Indian for a reason: consistency. I buy large pieces of EIR and cut all my bridge blanks from it, so the density is always very much the same (meaning with my usual bridge design, they always come out at the same weight and stiffness). I guess if I could buy a large piece of Brazilian, it would do just the same, but these suckers are pretty expensive and hard to find.

Cheers

Pat

-fwiw, Segovia's 1937 Hauser ("the guitar of the epoch"- Segovia) has an
East Indian Rosewood bridge, according to Richard Brune. Good enough for me.

-The guitar mentioned above was made with Brazilian back and sides, as
were most top quality classical guitars until at least the late 60s, Fleta being the notable exception- and he used Brazilian on occasion also.

Not sure what 'barring any other information' signifies.

Size, weight, and stiffness of the completed bridge are most likely the primary considerations, with damping of the bridge material possibly being a factor as well. Given the CITES issues with carrying things across the border, I've pretty well given up on BRW for bridges. Any of the rosewoods will work about the same, IMO, if you're careful in selecting the piece.

African and Indian ebony are quite dense, and have relatively high damping. It's difficult to keep the weight down in the 16-24 gram range with them. Macassar is a bit better.

Walnut and like are usually much less dense, and tend to make a bridge that is on the light side. This will certainly bring out the trebles on the guitar, if that's what you want.

There's a lot of debate abut what the properties of a good bridge 'should' be. I suspect it depends a lot on the top it's glued to, and the box that it's closing up. It's hard to do good science on this sort of stuff: sorting out variables is a trick. I think we're making progress, but it's slow.

If I may, I'd like to piggyback on this question with some more classical bridge questions of my own.

If using BRW for a classical bridge, what weight should I aim for (in grams)? And is this measured with the bone strips in place on the tie block or not? With the saddle or without?

I'm nearly done making the bridge for my first classical guitar (yeah, it's taken way longer than I thought it would to make!). It just needs tidying up and sanding a little more, then shaping to the guitar body. It's BRW with cow bone tie block strips. Right now it weighs 23.04g and has nice tap tone (like a marimba bar!).



Is this about in the right ballpark? Should I try to shave some more off (from areas where strength isn't a big issue?)?

All input welcome.

Thanks,
Dave F.

_________________
Cambrian Guitars

"There goes Mister Tic-Tac out the back with some bric-brac from the knick-knack rack"

Hi Dave

The weight includes anything you add to it, as is this case with the decorating bone strips.

Standard bridge weight for a classical is between 18 and 25 grams. With lattice and double top designs, some luthiers bring it down to 13-14 grams.

The weight of the bridge must be considered in relation to the overall design of your guitar. A heavier bridge will in theory improve sustain, but may have a negative impact on volume. A lighter bridge will in theory allow more volume, but decrease sustain. Again, this is all in relation to how you built your guitar, and there are dozens of factors to be considered.

My recommendation is to go for a compromise at first. 20 to 22 grams is a fairly safe way to go. I have learned that it's better to start an experiment at the middle of the road, then slowly stretch the envelop rather than the other way around. If you sand you bridge a little more and it comes down to 21 or 22 grams, you should be OK.

My 2 cents.

Pat

hi,
till last three I always use IR , now I use Paduk.
becouse of my brace patern this bridge have 13gr.
Fric

Dave, it will end up down to 22 with some clean-up and it will probably be just fine since it is the middle of the interval more or less. You could round the saddle block ridges more, and try to flatten the tieblock more with a file. Also file the slopes of the wings (not the top) near the bevel to bring the bevel shape closer to a real, bigger circle. You can also file a rounded trench at the exit string holes. This will save some weight and relieve some of the tension off the back seam.

_________________
Build log

I use almost exclusively honduran rosewood for bridges. Very low damping, looks good, and I've had the best result (sound wise) with it.

_________________
Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

I'm recovering from a Mini Stroke, or a TIA episode, and am anxious to get back to building.
I'm starting a Classical with African Blackwood, and P.O. Cedar top.
I have an AFB bridge blank, but heard that it is too heavy, and not advisable.
If the AFB bridge is not recommended, where can I find a Braz. Rosewood in a very dark color that would look right with the AFB B&S.

Thanks and Happy New Year,

Ray

Here's the CITES wood identification guide (BRW is on page 128)
http://www.cws-scf.ec.gc.ca/enforce/pdf/wood/Cites_Wood_Guide.pdf

From the guide (Message to customs officers and other inspectors responsible for enforcing CITES):



Christian

Thanks for the tips Pat/Alexandru - most helpful!!

I spent some time earlier today fitting the bridge to the guitar body. I had to take quite a bit of material off. It was hard holding onto the bridge while trying to apply even pressure to the sandpaper on top of the guitar, so I made a small holding tool. I had to finesse the block sizes on it so that the sanding pressure would be even across the whole bridge, but it didn't take long to make. With this tool, the bridge shaping went much quicker and smoother. Here are a few pictures of the bridge sanding holder (click them to see the hi-res versions):







After clean up and finish sanding, the bridge now weighs 18.38g and is a perfect fit on the soundboard. I'm happy with that.



Now on to finishing this guitar!

Cheers,
Dave F.

_________________
Cambrian Guitars

"There goes Mister Tic-Tac out the back with some bric-brac from the knick-knack rack"

My problem with using BRW for bridges is that I exhibit at the Montreal festival, and have to carry guitars into Canada. Some of my customers are Canadian, and some others tour into Canada. Perhaps the chances of getting caught are 'small', but there's still the chance.

My understanding is that the chances of getting caught are about to rise significantly. There is currently a simple chemical swab test that can differentiate some types of rosewood. I'm told that they expect to improve that within this year to the point where border guards will be able to reliably and simply distinguish BRW from others. At tha point BS about 'Madagascar' or 'Cocobolo' will be moot.

I did read an interesting article in a compilation the other day. It concerned using Carbon 14 testing to date recent objects. There was a large spike in C14 in the late 40s, and 50s, which has been dropping off since due to the fact that atmospheric nuclear tests have stopped, and burning of fossil fuels has released a lot of C12. It turns out the the ratio of C12 to C14 in living tissue reflects the relative concentrations that prevailed at the time it was formed. Thus, wood from 1945 will have a much lower proportion of C14 than wood from 1948, and so on. The characteristic ratios prevailing at specific times are known, and have been used to date tissue samples to within a few _months_.

The drawback is that this sort of test is expensive. However, it brings up the possibility of other tests that could, perhaps be less costly. Do other widespread chemicals leave behind signatures? DDT was practically ubiquitous, at one time: does it leave traces? Dating by tree rings is, I believe, nearly useless on tropical woods, since they lack pronounced annual rings. Might this sort of test be a reasonable proxy? If you can prove that the wood in your guitar was cut before June of 1992, it's legal. The issue, for many of us, is that we cannot prove that legal wood is legal, which renders it illegal.

It's just a thought. The original article "The Mushroom Cloud's Silver Lining", by David Grimm, appeared in 'Science', Sept. 12, 2008.

The news about a reliable swab tests grieves me, as I'm just getting ready to ship my latest guitar (with BRW bridge and headplate) to Spain for my own personal use over the next six months.

_________________
Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

Nobody spoke about Snakewood...
It is one of the hardest wood you could find...
I never tried on bridge, but i could say, by having try some taptone on some pieces of snakewood... it rings like a bell!

_________________
Francis Richer, Montréal
Les Guitares F&M Guitars

My best guitar yet has a Brazilian bridge weighting more than 1000Kg/m3, as in very heavy. It ended up at 24 grams. I'm sure even the heaviest ABW or coco can be brought under 25 grams if the shape is refined enough.

_________________
Build log

In my most recent commission, sent to Japan last month, I used E.I. rosewood throughout in order to clear Japanese customs without problems.
I like E.I. for bridges as it is rather lighter than Brazilian and I have made a point to secure appropriate dark, well quartered, straight grained stock for them.
I don't weigh my bridges, but I'm sure they are quite light as I make them a bit narrower (26mm) than most and the wings rather thin and flexible which compliments the internal structure of the top.

Snakewood is just a bit heavier than cocobolo or some other rosewood. On a size of a bridge, I don't think the extra weight is so important... For the sound, maybe my arms would take 1 or 2 extra grams...

_________________
Francis Richer, Montréal
Les Guitares F&M Guitars

Here are my three.

Brazilian RW

Cocobolo


Madagascan RW


The differences in the look of the finished bridges is much different than when unfinished. They looked very differenb before finishing, Now, they look similar.

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Here is another way to deal with the weight of snake wood. I used epoxy to glue the snake wood saddle and tie block to the canary wood bridge. Total weight 17 gms. I have had the guitar strung to tension with high tension strings for about eight months. So far so good. I cut the slots for the strings like a nut block before i glued the tie block to the bridge.