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I think that our aptitude resides in the pleasure that we derive from certain activities. I have an aptitude in what I do because I enjoy the work that I do and am willing to put in the time. It doesn't "feel" like work.

I would also say that our minds work in different ways. For example, while I can play guitar half decent, I'll never be a "musician" because my mind does not think in music. It thinks in terms of shape, colour, form, design, etc. I enjoy playing guitar, but I don't derive pleasure from investing hours and hours in practice. I derive pleasure from investing hours and hours in guitar building rather than playing.

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Expectation is the source of all misery; comparison the thief of joy.
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I am sorry , BUT, I think its hard to hear that some of you does not think these is something as a born abillity, Mozart was 4 years old as he wrote his first sonate or something, Now, you might say that anyone who got as much practice as him would get as good as him, But I am convinced that the case aint so !. There are accordingly to the latest scientific concloutions 7 different way of measuring intelligence "look up Howard Gardner" http://professorlamp.com/ed/TAG/7_Intelligences.html this would meen that we are born with different abilities.

Linguistic
Children with this kind of intelligence enjoy writing, reading, telling stories or doing crossword puzzles.
2. Logical-Mathematical
Children with lots of logical intelligence are interested in patterns, categories and relationships. They are drawn to arithmetic problems, strategy games and experiments.
3. Bodily-Kinesthetic
These kids process knowledge through bodily sensations. They are often athletic, dancers or good at crafts such as sewing or woodworking.
4. Spatial
These children think in images and pictures. They may be fascinated with mazes or jigsaw puzzles, or spend free time drawing, building with Leggos or daydreaming.
5. Musical
Musical children are always singing or drumming to themselves. They are usually quite aware of sounds others may miss. These kids are often discriminating listeners.
6. Interpersonal
Children who are leaders among their peers, who are good at communicating and who seem to understand others' feelings and motives possess interpersonal intelligence.
7. Intrapersonal
These children may be shy. They are very aware of their own feelings and are self-motivated.

(Sorry for bringing you into my psykology studies) hahaha

So, as to say that anyone with enough practice would be able to build a High-End guitar is wrong.
I would agree IF, you meen it like anyone can sing. ! Although, not as good as the next.

anyone can learn mathematics ! but not anyone can just by studying math become Einstein !!!
Same goes for luthery. everyone can learn to build a guitar, some look great, some sound great, and look great, some some look good but sound crap, some break, and some look flawless ! . also I am talking everyday language !! if we were to look up every word we said and have it lookt at, we would not be able to communicate. talent, skill, etc etc, some have it some dont , that´s just a fact. not just in luthery, that goes for most things.

Lars

Lars

Did you read the article I linked to? He's an example in it.

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To elaborate a bit more, within each group of aptitudes, it's the amount of work put in that separates the good from the great.

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This is slightly off topic, well maybe way off topic, but I'll bring it back in the end...

This is such an amazingly polite group. Not to mention talented (oops there's that word) and free sharing in their knowledge. I'm so glad I found this site!

An example of what we are all talking about is balance and execution. You look at the instrument and nod your head and think -- Yeah, that's nice. Same thing about a house, there are some houses you look at and the style, landscaping, and colors all just blend and you think -- I could live there. So, one has to have the abilities and experiences to know how to blend the various parts to produce an instrument that jumps out at your and says "Touch me, play me, buy me I can be yours!" The iPod has it. You touch one of those things and they just feel right. The mass, balance, color, shine. Everything in balance. Handmade instruments also has to have fine execution as well.

This is a good thread by the way. Interesting intelectual and creative stuff flowing here.

Thanks Andy I now read the article "parts" I still like the intro best accept for Malcolm Gladwells failure in wanting to be as good as Mozart but could not. "joking" hmm.

About the 7 Intelligences, It is to say we can work on these abillities, but some have more of one, then another, those who are good at, lets say dancing, or woodworking, have more od a Bodily-Kinesthetic mind. just look at sports, If all "could" become the best at his sport, then we would be lot of winners on the finish line. I know that how hard I even tried I could NEVER be a world skier etc. I dont have it in me, training or no training.

Andy, I hope you dont get upset or think I am coming on to hard !! I say all this with a smile. If anyone feels wrongly handled by my words, let me know, and then I am sorry was not my intention.

Lars

For me . I have to say it wasn't the building a good sounding guitar , it was hardest to make that good looking guitar. After I learned the building process , it was the fit and finish that makes the difference. In most cases , and I have seen many hand builts, the one thing that separates the homemade to the handmade is when you learn patience. My handicap early was allowing the details to slip . Once you accept that , you are on your way.
Building a guitar is about 350 processes. Each needs to be mastered. Finishing , is the one thing that to me was hardest . I didn't have the patience to do the detail work . Your end result is a synergy of the processes. Don't give up. Talent is a result or preparation , dedication , and execution.
john hall

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

I liked what Tony said "The Next One Will Be Better" .This is what I strive for even though I know deep down I`ll never be able to make a guitar that is in my opinion good enough.I`ll always think that the next one should be better.
James

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James W Bolan
Nashville Tennessee

Absolutely no offense taken Lars. I too say this with a smile. I just tend to "discuss" things by making bold statements to provoke more discussion. It tends to bring out more bold ideas to hash out.

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Wow. Handmade vs. Homemade? Completely depends of the definitions you use. Something handmade cartainly can be homemade and many of the luthiers here make theirs in their homes. Homemade isn't a cuss word. Do you mean quality vs. hacked? Most of the posts have it spot on there.

What i really want to get to though is the nature vs. nurture thing! (icon of eager smiley rubbing his hads together here)

I am in the camp, that agrees that hard work can overcome natural ability (talent) anyday, and natural ability can be neglected and wasted far more easily, but i firmly believe that pure raw talent can exist. So here's a thought, i'll start a new thread and post something i paid $120 for and you tell me talent or hard work. Then i'll give you the history when there's enough replies. i'll even throw it in the off topic thingy...

When I look over a guitar externally I automatically focus on the areas that I have struggled with, or the presence of little subtle touches and details that I have incorporated over the years after feedback from players or other more experienced builders. Obviously the finish is huge, but also things like the evenness of the binding transition to the upper bout on the back, the miters, the fit of the neck and heelcap, the fretboard transition to the upper bout, the transition of the edge of the neck into the fretboard and fret bevels, fit of the nut, depth of the string slots, saddle height, action, fretwork, stuff like that. It's usually pretty obvious to me what stage the builder is in just by looking at those simple things and remembering how long it has taken me to approach getting them right.
We are all wired different and I think there is a certain personality type that is better suited to excel at lutherie. If you used to get in trouble for tearing apart your mom's washing machine to see how it worked that 's probably a good sign.
Terry

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

I've noticed that top acheivers (in almost any discipline I've ever taken a close look at) have one thing in common, and it seems to relate nicely to the finding that their success appears to have a lot to do with how much practice they put in. I speak of sleep, or rather, lack of sleep!

These people stay up way beyond the normal bedtime of mere mortals. They do not appear to do this purposely (just cheating on sleep isn't going to make someone a top acheiver...). They cheat on sleep because while in the act of practicing, they are seemingly oblivious to the passage of time, completely engrossed in their chosen discipline, enjoying every moment of it, forgetting to eat a lot of the time. They begrudgingly go to bed for the minimum amount of sleep necessary.

Know someone like this?

Cheers,
Dave F.

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Cambrian Guitars

"There goes Mister Tic-Tac out the back with some bric-brac from the knick-knack rack"

I did before they put him away.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

It all depends on how much you had to pay for that "perfect set of Brazilian Rosewood"

No one has argued that the guy who puts in thousands of hours but still can't produce something that looks, feels and sounds like the rest of the high end guitars just doesn't have talent. Sometimes it just doesn't matter how much time you spend, if you don't "have it" you don't have it.

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"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Lars

In answer to your Mozart anology, I would say that there is certainly a genetic 'talent' in such genius, that when nutured properly and given the opportunity can flourish.... Mozart had that creative genius that is very rare, but hard work and lots of practice will allow most folk the chance to play to reasonable standard - sure for some it comes more natural, especially at younger ages when we are more like sponges for information and learning... but if dedicated enough, I do believe we can all learn teh skills necessary to build a professional level instrument - but its not easy - takes time, experience and a determination to ensure you are never satisfied with second best...

There will be some who get there quicker, just more natural hand, eye coordination that helpps them develop the craft skills quicker, but if patient and determioned I do think we could all achieve a gold standard, it might take 20 years and 200+ guitars but surely if learning at every satge we would get there?

Going back to the 'homemade' v 'handmade' - I think the definitions should be based more around quality v expectations? When we see the very best, be it handmade or the very best factory made instrument, they 'look right' - the design plays a big part - I guess its why designs become classics, they just work asthetically, the quality of the craftsmanshiop and the attenntion to detail - and hopefully the sound! - Although this is never always a guarrantee.

I think it also depends on what you want as a musician - for many guitarists tone is everythng but we also love and admire the craftsmanship that created it - the woods, etc so we tend to wnat the complete package... All the elements coming together - and its most likely to take a while before this all comes together for a new builder - there is always something!

That does not mean though that these first instruments can not make good instruments - just that not everything is maybe as you would expect if you were buying say a $7000 handcrafted guitar!

Its also, I think what makes this so addictive - the constant desire to improve 'on the next one' - putting right the small problems as you learn and improve the skills.

Good point Rod. If you repeat something one thousand times, but you're doing it wrong, repetition and dedication will not replace inate talent. It's just like playing/musical skills. Some people are born with it and everything seems to come easily. Other have talent, but they have to work harder and put in more time to achieve the same results while others will never achieve the same dexterity no matter how hard they try. But that's the way it is. We can't all be Tommy Emmanuel or (insert favorite, elite builder name here...)

Grit has it right I think. If you always strive to surpass your last effort and you take pride and joy in learning, chances are your craft will advance and you will get better. If nothing else, you can go to bed having learned something new most every day. At any rate, time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time, right?

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I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...

I find theses two are often but not always linked. The best musicians I have know have all understood that music is the sum of a mathematical equasion and inherently interpret it as such

I see two words repeating here, Talent and Aptitude, I feel as guitar makers we would all have the aptitude for the making of guitars, then we set about developing our talents for the making of guitars. Everybody has a different learning curve time frame based on many things but as long as the bar is always one step out of reach we will always be stretching our abilities in our chosen pursuit.
Cheers Chopper