Official Luthiers Forum!

Hi, this is my first post. After a playing store bought acoustic guitars for about 20 years (my main one being a Martin 000-15S) and stewing on the idea for a few years, I'm going to try my hand at crafting some guitars. I am hoping to get some guidance from this forum.

I'll give some background about myself before I ask any questions. I am a 33 year old father of 2 kids, who see me play all the time and have become interested in playing themselves. I have a union job that is neither physically nor mentally demanding and leaves me with a lot energy and time to devote to a pastime. My father is a carpenter and woodworker who can build almost anything. I have always been around wood and tools in his shop and have quite a bit of experience building various wood projects. I still to have access to these tools if need be but would like to set up my own shop.

My motivation and goal is to build myself, my daughter, and my son an acoustic steel string guitar. It would mean a lot to me to see my children learn on an instrument that I have built. To accomplish this I was going to just go ahead and buy the materials for all three guitars at one time to save on time and shipping costs. I figure building three of the exact same would lead to fewer mistakes.

Now to my questions -

1. Does anybody have any suggestions on a good starter instrument plan for children and beginners? Have any tips for building for children?

2. I terms of woods to use for top, back, sides, neck, fingerboard, headstock, etc, what is an affordable but nice sounding setup for a starting builder? (Destroying hundreds of dollars worth of wood and having to reorder would be somewhat discouraging)

3. I would like to craft my guitars by hand with no premade parts. I have pretty good idea from reading Cumpiano's and Kincade's books and inspecting the various kits for sale at LMII what my initial order form would look like, but to prevent reordering; can an experience builder direct me to an exact list of woods and parts I would need to order? Or somebody show me exactly what they order for a build?

Thank you in advance for any comments, tips, advice, etc.

Brad

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Brad

Tradition and Technology has a pretty good list of materials in it. Finding plans for a child size will be problematic. I suggest and OM or a 000 as a good first guitar for most any beginner 8 years old and up.

Woods for a first guitar and inexpensive, well you can’t hardly beat African Mahogany for back and sides price wise. A decent Sitka or Engelmann spruce top is fairly cheap. A mahogany neck blank is a good starter and Indian Rosewood fretboard. Simple wood bindings are just roughly $12 per guitar pre milled and can be made of most any hardwood and can be made for much less with a table saw and some way to consistently thickness..

$300-$500 is a realistic price for required materials including hardware. It all depends on where you get your material and where you restrain your budget.

Personally I think you will find a good kit is really the best way to start, but if insistent on a total scratch you will find that it would be cheaper in the long run to buy pre milled wood and blocks. Now when I say premilled I mean already resawn from billets not premade parts.

Glad to have you with us and let us know where ewe can help.

Hey Brad,

First off, WELCOME!! You will indeed get all the help you need at this fine place (and maybe even some you don't need ). I too am in the process of getting ready for a build for my 6 year old son. I have decided to design my own based on the Torres plan in Making Master Guitars (a very expensive book!). I want him to have a steel string and the Torres is a classical . So I will be taking those measurements and will be drawing out a body shape (a little more "steelstringish" in style) and then will lay out the braces based on the bridge location. I plan on drawing this to scale in the next few days. Once it is done you are welcome to a copy if you like. It won't have all of the construction details like a regular set of plans but it will have all that will be needed to build the thing and you can reference Kinkead for the rest and ask all you need on this forum. As for woods and a list of parts I can supply you with that as well. That question gets asked fairly often so maybe Hesh can put one together that we can put in a "getting started on your guitar" thread or something...Hey Hesh!!? Otherwise I will put one together and post it here. I would use Mahogany for back and sides and spruce for your top. They are readily avaible, traditional and look and sound great!

Good luck and welcome to the journey!

Shane

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Canada

Brad welcome to the OLF!

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Ann Arbor Guitars

What you choose for the kids really depends upon how old they are now, and how long till you build the "next" guitars for them. If you're talking Martin sizes, I'd be thinking an 0 or 00 would be a good place to start. There are a lot of "Parlour" guitars too choose from.

If the kids are really young, maybe something simple to get the started while you progress on the "real" guitars.

I'm building a pair of Torres SE117 style guitars for my daughters now. These are small classical guitars, but are still legitimate guitars and will be good performers even when they grow old enough for a standard "adult" size guitar.

I'd caution about building all three at the same time. While it sounds good for efficiency reasons, it also permits you from repeating the same mistakes three times. Maybe make the first one, then the other two together. This allows you to figure a few things out.

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Expectation is the source of all misery; comparison the thief of joy.
http://redrivercanoe.ca/

There are mistakes you could make in the beginning that you won't realize until you get to the end. I had a problem with my bridge height. This was due to not following the same set of plans. I was using multiple sources of instruction for he build and things were just off. I was able to fix it, but if I had been making 3, they would have all needed the fix. I won't have the problem on the next one.

You might want to look for some plans for a Martin Diston size guitar.

http://www.mguitar.com/guitars/choosing ... ught%20111

I have heard people talking about building these, but don't know where to find plans. I would build one of these for a child (or myself). John Hall at Blues Creek (Sponsor) might be able to point you in the right direction. I think someone mentioned selling a kit in the kit section of the forum. They may have plans.

Good Luck,

John

Hey thanks for the replies to my questions. Just to clear up my intentions I planned on buying the materials for three exact same models but intended on building one at a time. This way I can observe my mistakes and correct on the next build. Who knows, I may even need to build a fourth and a fifth (or sixth and seventh) to even have something playable. But I figure I am going to at least build three so I might as well just order all the materials at one time and save on shipping costs.

Michael - Your suggestion of mahogany B/S and neck and spruce top were what I was thinking but it really helps to here it from somebody with experience. You have suggested possibly an OM. I have plans for an OM from the Kincade book and was considering just using it. I need to compare it to my Martin 12 Fret 000 to visualize the size. Is the Kincade OM a good plan?

Shane - I would definitely be interested in getting a copy of the custom steel-string Torres you are planning when it is finished. A copy of your parts list would be very helpful too. Seeing how you and Douglas are both planning the same style of guitar for your children this may be a style for me seriously consider.

I was thinking a 12 fret Parlor body would be a good size and shape for children of the 6-10 year range to learn on. Any thoughts? Links to plans available or for sale?

In 20 years of playing I have never given much thought to what a guitar is made of or how it is constructed. I knew some basics like the top and back materials. Having said that I have a few questions that will help me put together a package and clear a few things up for me.

Does the kind of material used inside the guitar matter much? Say I order neckwood in bulk (or block) and have mahogany scraps can I use it to for bracewood, endblocks, or kerfing or should I order this separate? For the backjoint will I be able to use a cut off from the back, sides, or top? I've seen recommendations to use spruce for bracewood, kerfing, and joints. Does this matter? What do experienced builders use?

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Brad

Yes the Kincade plan is a well proven plan. Pardon me for saying so but so is mu OLF_OM plans. See Stewmac.com under books and plans. An OM 14 fret and a 000 12 fret have roughly the same body shape and size but the bracing and soundhole location is different.

My reasoning for a OM is that kids grow quick and a hand crafted guitar should last them a life time

Just to put the SE117 into some sort of visualization for scale, here is a photo of the girls with their instruments. They are 10 and 13. I'm at the binding stage. The shape and size is lovely as is, it wouldn't be difficult to convert to steel string construction.

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Expectation is the source of all misery; comparison the thief of joy.
http://redrivercanoe.ca/

Doug, Thanks for the picture to help with perspective. These do appear to be good size for children to learn on but not grow out of too quickly.

I think my problem is that I would not feel confident enough adapting a plan having never built a guitar before. I would like to buy a tried and true 12 fret small body plan that I can follow pretty much without modifications.

Don't know if either of these fits my specs but I was thinking about using a Martin 1-18 plan

https://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/thirdproducts.asp?CategoryName=Plans%2C+Steel+String&NameProdHeader=Martin+1%2D18%2C+1918

or a Small Concert "Parlor" Style by Scott Antes

http://www.folkcraft.com/1303299.html

I have read that the bracing in this plan is heavy and would need to be redesigned.

Something similar to this early Stella Parlor would be perfect if anybody knows of a plan of this size and style.

[youtube]http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=sgI7zzH8wAI&feature=related[/youtube]

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Brad

First welcome to to the OLF. IF you are serious about building guitars, you will not regret joining this wonderful forul filled with top notchguys and gals.


First if its your first guitars, I would suggest you to get a kit with premade neck ! or atleast semi premade neck. until you get a hang for it. Also getting neck in form of billet, you will need to have a good bandsaw. so if building as kit you wont need as much tools if building from scratch you will need lots of tools , and the better tools the easier it is to get to a perfect guitar. (allthough its hard to define perfect )
I would with my very limited experience say that if your looking to build a guitar just for the fun of building, not for sound, then inside material does not matter, but if your planning to build a guitar that will both sound and look good. then inside is very important. Adirondack spruce, Sitka, European for bracing are mostly used "european depending much on where you live (as goes for ADI) as they are more expensive than Sitka. bridge plate also has overall tone effect, maple, rosewoods, are most common I think. rosewood for a more deeper tone , maple for a more natural and/or bright tone. (anyone correct me if I am mistaken) . kefing you can pick either spruce or cedar. Bracing is where you dont want to get bad material, its as important as the soundboard i would say.
Finally. I hope my text came out positive haha. its the most fun I´ve had for years so have fun and best of luck.
Lars.

Welcome to the forum Brad.

I've built the Size 5 terz guitar. Plans from Scott Antes. It's a really delightful guitar to play. Small enough for a young one, but is still my favorite to pick up and strum. And I'm 6' 1".

The bracing is easy to lighten up. You just narrow it up a touch, then go from there. A little can make a lot of difference.

One option is to go through LMI and get everything you need in kit form. You can choose to have a serviced, or un-serviced kit. You can also get one of Robbie O'Brien's building videos. They're really helpful for the first time builder.

Here's a picture to give you some perspective on size. The Size 5 in front of a 000.

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Allen R. McFarlen
Barron River Guitars & Ukuleles
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Cairns, Australia

Are the Size 5 Terz plans from Scott Antes that you used the same as this 3/4 plan?

http://www.folkcraft.com/1303293.html

http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/thirdproducts.asp?CategoryName=Plans%2C+Steel+String&NameProdHeader=Smaller+Guitars+%28OM%2C+000%29+by+Scott+Antes

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Brad

By the way Allen those are some nice looking guitars. Thanks for the pic.

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Brad

Howdy Brad,

You've already gotten a lot of good advice here. When started, I ordered the standard LMI kit. When it gives you choices on what to custumize, I didn't know what most of those words meant, so I just got it as is. Turned out great! If you don't want to use the LMI kit, many of the OLF sponsors can set you up with most of what you need. You can certainly use the parts list from your LMI kit to help you shop. I've also sent off an email that went something like this, "Hey Bob, I'm trying to build my second guitar, and don't want to practice on good wood. Can you send me all the wood I need to get a body done?" That worked too.

I disagree with Lars about a premade neck. For me, making the neck was my favorite part. Carving away on the heel and shaping the neck with a spokeshave was so tactile and satisfying to see the neck come together rather than watching the right part magiaclly pop out of a jig. There are certainly many ways to mess it up, but it's not difficult.

Keep in mind that I built mine as part of a class and had expert guidance as well as proven premade jigs available to me. Working on my own is much slower, but has not resulted in any disasters. It also has yet to result in a completed guitar.

Welcome to guitar building and good luck.

Mike

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Mike Lindstrom