Official Luthiers Forum!

Pretty cool Brad YES I will have a lot more information for you. More to come.

Goodness! I suppose I missed the last couple Flight Nights here, given I am buried in setting up the new clinic. Was there some sort of off-line spat that triggered this very public discussion? Having looked through the most recent threads, it seems like the usual intellectual disagreements on methods, materials, or sartorial choices, though certainly nothing that rose to the smack-downedness and histrionics of the early 2010's. Not to rehash the thread, but a concise summary of what triggered this dust-up would be helpful, as I thought we were all more-or-less getting along.

Condolences on you and your family's loss, of course. For what it might be worth, it took me about three years after the passing of my father to fully return to my usual cheerful, well-balanced, outgoing, near-flawless personality. While nearly all of us will end up as orphans at some point in our lives - hopefully no sooner than when our parents are ready to move on - the loss still serves to dis-balance and disrupt. I was lucky enough to bury myself in the beginning stages of my time at Greenridge, which was infinitely preferable to engaging in the same old routine, leaving entirely too much mental capacity available for darker thoughts or the mental spinning that is so damaging to equilibrium. Passion for the journey into something new seems infinitely preferable to mere distraction, as sorrow and grief require both outlet and a path along which to transform into reverence and fond remembrance.

Best wishes on your journey, and do try to remember to ask for help early and often - this from someone that did not and certainly suffered needlessly because of it.

_________________
If you're really successful at (BS'ing), it means you're not hanging around enough people smarter than you.

Neil deGrasse Tyson

Thank You Woodie especially for sharing your own experiences with loss and grieving. It's the hardest thing I have ever had to do and I've never struggled this much or this long with anything before. Everyday in the late afternoon as much as a try the images of my Mom slowly dying over six awful weeks come back to me. And of course these days I have too much time on my hands too so needed distractions such as what you did getting lost in Lutherie I don't have enough to do.

When my father the war hero passed I had such dislike for him that I never shed a tear. Then over the years I began to wonder if I am some kind of cold sort who can't feel for anyone else and I hoped that was not the case. So no tears for my Dad, not a one ever.

When my Mom passed I learned that my tear ducts work quiet well.

Anyway as to what happened there was no incident, no exchange, no one being a jerk recently. I wrote something as a reply to someone and found myself waking up in the middle of the night wondering if any of two people, I think.... who only show up to fight and attack me if you look at their thread history would corrupt my post and intent and start a fight.

I sat here in the middle of the night hearing Mario and Rick and Dave Collins and Sylvan and others who have specifically told me to get the hell out of the forum it was not a good place for anyone with skin in the game in terms of working in the trade.

And then I pushed back and remembered the Israeli in me and said to myself this is BS I'm going to shine the light of day on the offense and if possible the offenders. I continue to believe that the vast majority of folks here are very decent and that they would also not want their forum to be used for reasons that are specifically against the written rules here. We actually see this happen in this thread too what I described concerns me and what I would hope others would do for everyone's sake. It's always great to see someone stand up for decency.

Thanks again for sharing a deeply personal and sad subject I appreciate it greatly. If you have not noticed I am someone who will openly talk about nearly anything. If it's deeply personal to me I may discuss with perfect strangers. Most of the time people surprise me in a very good and decent way and that brings me back and is greatly appreciated.

You already know I'm nuts so I will tell you that I am still speaking with my Mom. I tell her I love her and I miss her with all my heart a bunch of times every day. No one is there of course I am just peaking out loud to an empty room or car. She told me that she would come back as a bird and she once wrote a children's book about Robbie Robin so I am seeing Robins now venturing from their watering spots and into the neighborhoods of Michigan. When I see one I say hi to my Mom.... just in case that's her.

For many of my male friends their Dads were their role models and who became the model of what and who they wished to become. For me and on a public forum I have no qualms sharing that my Mom was my positive role model and for her it was her father who was a very good man and a New Jersey Blacksmith.

Time flys. Thanks Woodie.

Hesh my friend, I’m so sorry for your loss and I send my deepest condolences. Truly it is one of the hardest things in life when we must bid our parents farewell.

Glad to hear you plan to continue fighting the good fight. I have barely set foot in here for the last few months for a few reasons, one being I’ve just been busy in my own repair business, but in part because of a thread a while back which rubbed me the wrong way. Someone (not a luthier, either pro or amateur) joined the forum and started a thread complaining about work they’d had done in a pro shop. A proportion of thread respondents seemed quite interested in criticising the work (which none of them had ever seen or actually evaluated) from a shop they’d never visited, based solely on the word of an anonymous alleged customer of that business. We had no way of knowing if the original post was genuine or malicious from someone with an axe to grind. Thankfully the shop was not named, although hints were dropped.

Anyone who has actually tried to pay the bills working on or building guitars knows it’s no walk in the park. Watching a peanut gallery of (mainly) hobbyists earnestly passing judgement on a pro shop, based on pure hearsay, struck me as so ludicrous that I decided I needed a break.

It’s not a big leap from a thread like that to one where a shop is actually named and real damage is done to someone’s business, livelihood and family.

For the most part, however, this place has been instrumental in the advancement of my own career and it has been thanks to the selfless contributions from Hesh, Chris, Woodie, John, Barry, Pierre and the many others before them who have been willing to share their hard-won knowledge with us.

Josh my friend I once surveyed the pro Luthiers both builders and repair people as to why they left. My sampling was 24 some of them the biggest names in the business. In every case it was because of what you just described.

Some fraud... comes along and flames a pro who is here out of the kindness of our hearts sharing and usually receiving nothing in return but grief and the less endowed feeling like they will take a poke at the perceived school yard bully.

They leave because they have skin in the game, you have skin in the game, I have skin in the game and for us if someone attacks us it can mean that we don't eat as well as we might wish next month.

It's also against the OLF rules to bring a beef here to try to settle it AND it's a classless, cowardly act especially when done with a fake name. These people should be shunned and rejected and my plan going forward is to for the first time in nearly 20 years here not help people who impress me as being here for ulterior motives, fake name, only showing up when there is a dispute, etc.

I hope you continue to hang out here my friend we need you and I promise you if this happened to you I would be jumping in and tearing someone a new one over it. If it did happen to you let's ask Lance to delete the thread and ban the perp? It is against the rules to bring a beef here.

My apologies too Josh.

Thanks Hesh, thankfully the thread wasn’t aimed at me, it was more just that sitting around trashing someone’s work struck me as having drifted a long way from this forum at its best - a place to share information, advice, techniques and support everyone’s mutual advancement in the craft.

Dave belongs to this Looth Group and he likes it. These are a bunch of often professional Luthiers (not everyone is a pro) in their shops every day and it's a Zoom I think presentation where you can see all of these folks working. We have it happening in our shop I'm the guy just out of the view of the camera making fart noises.... but I digress.

Dave likes it and it helps with the loneliness of a solitary pursuit such as Lutherie. Since I have been in the background observing the activity of the Looth group it is pretty cool and these guys (men and women) are what you describe, supportive, helpful and they have class too I've not seen any fighting. I have a couple tools because they were recommended in this group and we thought we could benefit from them. Just got a new solder sucker last week that someone in this group recommended and it's great.

Bottom line the pros have created some safe spaces for us to hang so for our daily dose of Loofierism we need not hang on beginner builder forums anymore we too have choices now, good choices.

I see this as a very good thing.

Remember Evan Gluck he's with the Looth Group and Evan like me started here on the OLF nearly 20 years ago.

I have a grant application deadline staring me in the face, as well as imminent opening of a new clinic, and still find I have to offer counter-point and some context.

I would urge those here on a regular basis to avoid either creating or maintaining a mono-culture where debate of ideas, methods, and practices is sacrificed to some notion of civility in which professional disagreement is mistaken for personal attack. Safe spaces sound great on paper, but tend to create apartheid-like subcultures where the intellectually indefensible is deemed acceptable because it is emotionally attractive to some small, vocal segment of a community. Yes, there are rules to be followed for debate - spirited or otherwise- but let's not sacrifice reasoned debate in the name of utopian serenity.

And in terms of those rules, beyond not being a jerk, two more should apply if we are to have intellectually challenging, relatively unemotional exchanges of ideas. First, argue the idea rather than the person, and second, be prepared to show one's work.

In terms of the first, over the last 20 years or so, attacking the individual versus his or her ideas has grown from a niche strategy of the political class to a primary social media tactic to hijack otherwise rational conversation. Whether because of an inability to argue an idea on the merits or due to simple intellectual sloth, it has become much easier to get away with attacking the person versus doing the harder work of considering the salient elements of an argument and constructing effective counter-arguments. This 'attack the man/avoid discussing his idea' approach also avoids the need to actually listen to and understand the thoughts and ideas of others, leading to a wasting away of the skill set required for active listening, which seems like a 'lose/lose' proposition for everyone involved.

On the second, it is both reasonable and ultimately intellectually broadening to ask that those with strong positions or opinions on a matter being discussed be prepared to educate others on why they hold those views. For the other parties to a discussion - both active participants and passive listeners - asking someone to show their work provides a foundation for a more rationale understanding of the idea, technique, practice, etc., and support adoption or discard as the case may be. Discussion also tends to highlight logical/physical/mathematical fallacies, whether they be classical fallacies such as argument from authority or simply appeals to the heart.

I should mention that the majority of those here argue quite well, with Mr. Breakstone's 'here's how we do it at Ann Arbor' posts supported by rationale and outcome information being one exemplar, and Mr. Hall's willingness to admit that sometimes his approach to a task is NOT well supported by data, but rather 'it just seems to work.'

Finally, keep in mind that the inter-webs, screen, mouse, and keyboard constitute a horribly sparse communications channel, often lacking much in the way of clues as to state of mind/mood/temperament of the poster, so rife with the potential for both unintended or intentional misunderstandings. A willingness to admit that potential and to gracefully accept an apology or explanation seems like a necessary accommodation to utilizing a commons such as the OLF.

_________________
If you're really successful at (BS'ing), it means you're not hanging around enough people smarter than you.

Neil deGrasse Tyson

Thanks Woodie we don't agree on a number of levels but that's OK I respect your positions and your right to share them, always.

One thing that I've found seems to be a point of contention that happens here once in a while and has always happened here is some folks who come here are very accomplished. But they are newbs to Lutherie and at times, not always egos get hurt and someone get wounded because someone with more experience with Lutherie than them may not be overly kind in correcting someone. I can be guilty of not being overly kind I'm sad to say, it's not what I want to project and who I am in person.

I like to watch how people list their status and at times we have seen people list themselves as a pro when they mean in the sense of their occupation which is not Lutherie.

Starting over is not easy for some folks. I came here having had significant positions with the World's largest and most successful company at the time. Showed up on the OLF and I was a banana crate newb There are advantages to not knowing crap ask Sgt. Schultz.

Woodie your view and description of a learning environment sounds like medicine to me having had a step father who was a Doc and a Mom who was an RN and Social Worker. An environment where there is an expectation that feelings and emotions will be left at the door.

That does not work here in my view and if it did this forum would have 12 members. Even me, nicest guy on planet Uranus... gets criticism that someone thought I was mean to them here.....

People come here for fun and if they do come here to get a professional Luthier education they are going to be missing a whole lot this is not a structured program by any means.

So on one hand I can see your vision of the OLF and there is some history there that those who were more comfortable with what you are describing did not get along with others here and are no longer here in some instances.

Clay brought up that on the MIMF a moderator who would keep things on topic was really hated by many people and that forum did stay pretty stagnant over the years because of the "tone." I agree with Clay and that moderator forgot that some people came there to have fun too.

Anyway people can vote with our feet and forums should in my view never be considered a primary education in anything.

Thanks for the kind words and if I may please reciprocate your posts are some of the very best ever made here. I am never left with more questions when I read what you have to say and if you suggest a product it's often in conjunction with where to get it, where it costs what, etc. Your reliance on science is very refreshing in a very subjective field of study.

I'm glad you're here not that it matters what I think and I thank you kindly for all the times you have helped me learn something.

It's very clear that you are an exceptional person with off the charts abilities and I am sure that your clinic or any of your pursuits will be as successful as can be.

Thanks for putting up with me too, I know it's not easy at times. A sincere thanks Woodie.

Speaking of luthier repairmen, here is an obituary from The Economist. https://www.economist.com/obituary/2024 ... usic-again. No politics intended on my part, just a moving story.

Thanks Carl great read and what a cool shop he had too.

Been away a long time, sad to see John not posting any more always appreciated professional information and help offered freely

If Mr. Hall elected to cease posting here, it seems as though that decision was extremely short lived, given his most recent post and his most recent visit occurred yesterday (May 2nd, 2024). Keep in mind that Mr. Hall posts under 'bluescreek' versus 'John Hall', so it can be a bit confusing when searching for recent posts.

_________________
If you're really successful at (BS'ing), it means you're not hanging around enough people smarter than you.

Neil deGrasse Tyson