Official Luthiers Forum!

Not directly relevant to the thread, but cast iron is often not dimensionally stable. Back in my hot rodding days, we preferred used engine blocks for precise engine builds because they were more stable once they had aged. We found similar situations when building large bases for industrial robots. It seems once cast iron ages, it's more stable. Sound familiar?

Pat

_________________
formerly known around here as burbank
_________________

http://www.patfosterguitars.com

Thanks much for that David F. and Happy Holidays to you too!

During my low category career in the 80's I was more likely to become a perfect extension of the road.

_________________
It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Very eloquently put David - I have taken a lot away from this thread that hopefully make me a better craftsman....

[quote="Pat Foster"

Not directly relevant to the thread, but cast iron is often not dimensionally stable. Back in my hot rodding days, we preferred used engine blocks for precise engine builds because they were more stable once they had aged. We found similar situations when building large bases for industrial robots. It seems once cast iron ages, it's more stable. Sound familiar?

Pat[/quote]
Pat, years ago when I was a machinist we would store our casting outside in the weather for a year before we would machine them.
That system worked good, then accountants started running the company and they didn't want the inventory on hand for that long.
Just in time manufacturing and all that. So we started getting the casting a few days before we needed them.
Thats when we started having problems with our cast parts, go figure.
Accountants should never run a factory.
Sorry about the rant.

_________________
Say what you do, Do what you say.

When I was doing University of Phoenix they taught just in time manufacturing like it was gospel. At first it sounded good but then I realized that there are some problems. For example some materials must be bought and stored because of availability problems (such as wood), others must be stored/aged (fine wine). Furthermore just in time manufacturing assumes that no disruption in the supply chain would ever happen, and we all know disruptions can happen ANY time.

It works great for computer parts where things would depreciate quickly, or perishable food items. But for stuff like wooden products, JIT doesn't always work.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Hesh, good topic. [THUMBS UP SIGN] I don't glue the frets in to hold them still. The tang should take care of that. Titebond in the slots when inserting the frets, prevents the fretboard breaking when frets are removed for regretting is what a pro told me. He also said that a toothpick in water across each slot before inserting and glueing is like a lubricant. Getting the fall away from 12 fret right is something that I discovered was important when I could not stop buzzing when fretted from 7 onwards after doing the following
1 Check the neck was perfectly level without frets
2 Insert frets and check the tops were level with correct tuning then ease off the truss rod to get a very slight bow.
I drew a full size sketch when I had this problem, and suddenly it all clicked why fall away was important.

Thanks guys!

Moving on we talked about leveling so the natural progression is to discuss recrowning, polishing, fret ends, etc.

Before I do though you can make your own leveling beams from 1" X 2" aluminum stock with a surface plate by lapping the two 1" sides to the level of precision that you are interested in. Then install self-stick paper on the two 1" sides and Bob's your uncle.

Length wise you want a beam that will span slightly beyond the 1st fret through the 12th and a shorter beam that spans the 12th through the last.

Paper wise our beams have everything from 80 through something similar to 600. For your uses if you are only building and not repairing 80 grit is useful for board leveling and then 120 and 220 should be all that you need for leveling new frets.

If you Google "Technofret" it will take you to OLFer Murray's eBay store and he makes and laps these beams and offers them for a very attractive price. Note too the level of precision that he lists that these are lapped to - impressive! Here is a link to Murray's eBay store:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/TECHNOFRET-Advanced-Fret-Leveling-System-/180677811948

Stew-Mac has them too but SM's are steel, no real advantage to steel that I can see either but SM's are pretty nice too but I can't speak for how far they take the lapping never having used one of SM's prior.

For crowning or recrowning there are lots of ways to do this too with the traditional way being a three corner file.

I prefer the diamond crowning files from SM and we have a bunch of them too....



What I like about them is very nearly everything... The weight, handles, etc. all feel like quality me and they work very well in my experience. Over the body we use the angled, shorter diamond files for better access.

In a nutshell magic marker ink is used, not always but often to check progress not only for leveling but also for crowning. The ink can clog files at times too so it's not necessary for recrowning once you know what to look for without it and can actually see it too.... I don't use ink for crowning and adjusting the light carefully should permit you to see your progress.

The goal in recrowning frets is to give them a nicely shaped crown but not to disturb the middle of the top of the crown or you will mess with the level set that you achieved while leveling.

Again lots of ways to do fret crowns and you most certainly do not have to spend all of your coin on tools. We appreciate good tools, guarantee our work, and for the professional standards that we subscribe too.... tooling up is never in question - YMMV.

Some notes on using crowning files. Some of the commercial files out here will result in "school bus roof" shaped fret crowns. The fix is to rock the file slightly when using it. If you are uncomfortable rocking the file or in the repair world are working on say a G*bson fretless wonder the file may slip and scratch the fret if the frets are very short. If this is the case using the files upright only and then hitting the sides with a three corner file for several or more passes will nix the school bus roof shaped crowns.

Lastly the diamond stuff does cost more but it lasts WAY longer, works in BOTH directions, has that quality feel that I spoke of, and above all what ever you use sticking with it over time affords us the opportunity, never any guarantees though... to get better with the tool in time.

I have several files that are my go-to files and I know them well, how and where they work best, what to look for etc. and as such I am rather fond of some of my tools. Funny how this happens.

I just stick to triangle files. They work for recrowning, one size fits all, and they are CHEAP. Get a nice fine cut one and you can actually polish the frets with a Dremel buffing wheel in one step without sandpaper.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Sure a three corner file is a great solution and what has been used since the cows came home by many in the trade. We use them too at times and I mentioned this.

Have you ever seen a Master use a three corner file? It's not what I thought until I watched it and started to learn it too. It's all in the wrist and someone skilled with a three corner can do both sides of the fret at once rather quickly as well. The noise that this method can make when in the hands of a Master is a rapid click, click, click and not what we would think from using any file. It's cool to watch and can be pretty quick too in the right hand.

With any polishing method care should also be afforded to the idea that above all you don't want to change the level set that we just achieved in the leveling process. I have Dremels and SM polishing wheels too and prefer not to use them... Why? They most certainly do produce a nice shine but they are too aggressive in my view and as such can, in the wrong hands.... change the height of the individual frets - not good....

Off topic this that never stopped some folks including me at times... what the wheels from SM do do very well is to mill one into a "V" shape and use it to polish the saddles on Fenders, Gibsons, etc. (electrics) because these instruments can have microscopic burrs on the saddles resulting in frequent string breakage. The SW wheels will kill the burrs and polish the saddles to a very smooth surface saving strings and player frustration.

I've never understood the mantra of the 3 cornered file. Personally I find it much easier to use a large, fine cut flat file. For some reason it seems easier to judge the angle, probably because you have effectively got a flat surface (as opposed to a point) to eyeball.

I use to think the same thing and for years I used a "special" little flat file that I picked up somewhere. I call it "special" because it was only about 6" long and had really fine teeth with both edges smooth. I got it when I was about 15 and I "lifted" it from my dad's tool box. It was the file used to destroy many frets before I really knew what I was doing but it turned out to be my favorite because it wasn't very aggressive and it had smooth edges. I have since moved on to using a couple of triangle files and I now prefer them for a couple of reasons. The first being they are both small, one is about 1/4" wide and the other is about 1/8" both are tapered. I really prefer the 1/8" over both because it is very fine and leaves the frets pretty smooth.

I also have a fret crowning file but I really prefer to use a small block of wood that I filed a groove in with a round file. I just use stick-it paper on it and after the first fret the paper fits the contour of the groove and gives me a nice crown. I find it less aggressive then crowning files and again it leaves a smoother finish. A lot of times I don't even have to file the edges after I have crowned them with my block so that is how I have been doing my frets lately.

But I use to be hooked on using that little flat file because it was comfortable and I knew what angle I was holding it.

Bob

OK the last thing that I wanted to cover in this thread that attempts to discuss some criteria for decent fret work are the fret ends.

Not so much lately but about 5 years ago on this forum folks were going gaga over their fret ends. Semi hemispherical fret ends were the rage both in the builder community and with some of the repair guys looking to upgrade their chops. Interestingly I can't recall a single client ever actually indicating that they want nice fret ends taken to the degree of the SH ends but hey that never stopped Luthiers from stressing over it. It's only market demand - what's that got to do with making killer guitars.....

Nonetheless toots showed up, new products hit the suppliers such as pre-end-dressed frets that all you had to do was hammer them home.... in the correct slot, and perfectly centered as well.... Stew-Mac introduced a couple of new fret end files as well so that we could all tool-up for this tectonic shift in the force where the Lutherie Gods had spoken.... Thou Shalt Do Hemispherical Fret Ends.....

And in the words of the great Mick Jagger "so I did....." Lots of others did too.

Interestingly these days when was the last time that you have heard of semi hemispherical fret ends? It's been a while for me too.

So what's important in a fret end? Here are some things off the top of my head:

1) Not sharp!
2) Not proud of the neck
3) properly glued down and not loose.
4) Pleasing to the eye - looks like that deliberateness of craftsmanship thing.....
5) Drum roll please.... and perhaps a new one too - not beveled in too much.....
6) No fangs....

Now I know in advance that lots of folks are going to say that there goes that whack job Hesh again with his number 5 - we all know that Martin, Gibson, Collings, you name em bevels the ends of their frets fairly far inward how could all of these folks be wrong and whack job Hesh correct?

Easy and here's why. Remember Mr. Greaseball weekend wedding player? His entire existence in our lives was because the fret work that he had done elsewhere by a very skilled Luthier by the way did not work for him. More specifically he needed more fret top surface for his bends and fret ends that were not slightly sticking up and capable of catching and holding the string on the side of the neck when he bent the string too far.

In short - the fret work that he had received prior did not let this artist play as he wished to play. It was a deal breaker for Mr. Greaseball.

Regarding the bevel angle that we see on f*ctory instruments if anyone is wondering how this practice started, beveling the fret ends inward fairly radically even if it reduces "usable" fret top surface I have a theory...

Just like with the advent of cheap, mass produced slotted pl*stic bridge pins permitting f*ctories to nix the semi-skilled labor needed prior beveling, radically beveling fret ends was a cost cutting measure. If you simply beveled the fret ends inward far enough it would not matter anymore if the ends were sharp because one's hands did not encounter the sharp ends of the frets. Problem solved? Sure but not for Mr. Greaseball....

If you check out commercial tools for beveling fret ends and note the angles that these tools produce the angles are too radical in my view and would not satisfy more demanding players.

Back in the day frets were bars, little metal bars with no tang or barbs that were inserted into the fret slot and glued as well. Much more labor intensive and of course the ends had to be dressed too and often were dressed to a much greater degree than what we see these days from f*ctories. Again semi-skilled labor and an acceptance if you will that some of this stuff is simply going to take some time and very much part of the trade.

As the costs were over time reduced for producing guitars some of the reasons why things were done as they once were along with the benefits seem to have been lost in time. Since we can't dig up some of these guys and ask them, well we could but they likely would not have much to say and just as likely would not smell too good either.... we have to put on our Lutherie forensics hats and try as we will to understand how we got from there to here....

I suspect that most folks who are interested in building are just as interested in building to a standard that exceeds what we see from f*ctory instruments, most f*ctory instruments anyway.

It's been an expectation in the Luthier-built instrument craft that we will not be overly influenced by the cost cutting measures of the f*ctories and instead go the extra mile or 100....

We nixed the one-size-fits-all cheap pl*stic nuts in favor of fossilized Mastiff Turd and we tossed the cheap, molded pl*stic bridge pins often in favor of something more traditional such as a 3 degree, unsloted, not-pl*stic pin but when it comes to our fret ends we are still, at times, beveling away valuable fret top playing surface and calling it good.... just like the cost-cutting f*ctories.... do.

Instead consider using a far less radical bevel and I would estimate this to be less than half of the bevel angle that we see these days. Consider instead shaping your fret ends to a shape that is not sharp, not proud, has no fangs (described earlier in the thread), never loose...., and that pleases the eye.

Here is a tidbit for you as well - to some Luthiers their fret ends are a signature of sorts. An indication of the skill, craftsmanship and artistry of the maker and as such at times as individual as the makers themselves. Maybe that's why some produce smooth ends and others sharp ends....

A small point, part of the user interface to the instrument for sure, but also important when done well.

Much of the work that I do is with instruments that someone else or a f*ctory has built and as such the ends are already much as they will be since most of the time too much material has already been removed. Nonetheless we can still pull the fangs, smooth the sharpness away, file anything that's proud of the neck, and polish to a scratch free shine that pleases the clients and the Luthier who is intent on doing their very best at all times.

Hopefully something here has been of value to some - that's the goal. Fret ends have unfortunately evolved over time into something that is not addressed well in the trade certainly by the f*ctories. But we can change all of this with our own creations if we see it as important, value, something that Mr. Greaseball may want, and quite frankly kind of fun to do too.

Thanks

One of the things you didn't mention about fret ends is filling the little gap where the tang meets the slot. 90% of the time there is that little gap that looks unfinished. I always save some of the sanding dust when I level a fretboard and use that to fill in that little gap. I usually use a small paint brush and dab a bit of lacquer in the slot and then push some of the sanding dust into the slot and then sand it off. As a final finish I also lacquer the fret ends and make sure they are uniform with the edge of the fretboard. To me it puts the final touch on a fret job and I think it is one of the reasons people seems to really like my work. I make sure you can't feel anything but smooth when you rub your hand across the edge of the fretboard.

About hemispherical fret ends, I almost always do them on a bound fretboard unless the frets have binding nibs on them like a Rickenbaker. I find that a hemispherical fret end can be done using a much steeper angle than a bevel which gives the player more fret and they are very smooth. They actually take less time since I round them off and polish them before setting them in the fretboard.
I always ask my clients if they want me to round them off and almost everyone has preferred them over regular fret ends. I have had a couple of clients say they didn't like them so I had to go back and bevel them (pain in the behind after the fact on a bound board.

Hesh,
I would be interested in hearing how you guys deal with bound boards with nibs. I hate doing them because they take so long to do. They seem to take me about twice as long to do a fret job with them. And I know some guys just cut them off and paint the ends of the frets to give the appearance of still having the nibs.

Cheers,
Bob

Actually there are about 1,242 things that I didn't mention about fret ends - please feel very free to make a contribution as well as you have.

You are speaking of unbound boards correct? If so on my own creations I'm bound boards all the way - I hate the look of either visible fret tangs or a lousy, noticeable attempt to fill and hide same.

If refretting an instrument such as the one that I did last week that the guy was pleased with and I posted his unsolicited comments in this thread his instrument was not bound either, the f*ctory had done a decent job of filling the fret slot ends, finishing over it, etc.

So who am I to argue with that....

When lifting the frets I was careful to do no harm to the board in terms of chipping or even knocking out the f*ctory filler. All went well and when refetting I took the bit of extra time to undercut the tang at the ends which is standard fare for a bound board and then I installed the new frets sands tangs going all the way to the ends preserving the f*ctory fret slot end fill, finish, look, etc.

I don't see my task in life as correcting every single thing on an instrument that in my opinion the maker/f*ctory may have not done to my liking. Instead what's critical to me is to completely understand the client desires and issues and address those issues completely and professionally. I'm also about going the extra mile and we most always do too which the "scratch" mentioned in the email that I posted was just that, something that bothered the client that was easy for us to do something about.

There is the issue of scope creep as well. Vets in the repair trade will find this resonating with them. It's the little scratch that we can fix so we start fixing it and in short order our efforts have expanded the area to four times it's original size. We move up progressively in sanding, perhaps wet sanding and that affected area is now 1/3 of the instrument top.

As such I'm not keen to even knock f*ctory filler out when there is no need to do so and it looks pretty ok as is and was never even brought up as being important to the client.

Another example if you clean the instruments that you get to work on is the dirty guitar. It may belong to a smoker and over the years it's gotten yellow, with lots of film on it. Use polish on the instrument and you likely just smeared up the owners dirt in a less attractive pattern than you found it. Now since you messed with it for a seemingly minor thing you now "own" all of the dirt on the stinking thing and in my view have some obligation to clean the entire instrument..... well. Two hours later you can take a break....

Back to your question?

When I built with unbound boards early on filling the ends of the fret slots was a very simple operation consisting of a smear of glue, sanding the board in the direction of the board so that the dust entering the wet glue in the slot end was ONLY the same color as the board dust and not the neck dust. Repeat a few times and move on. Easy but not as nice looking in my view as a bound board and an extra step not necessary with bound boards.



Then SH fret ends are your signature feature. I have yet to have anyone even bring them up.

I'm glad that it works for you, asking if folks want SH fret ends, but not something that I would ever do. Instead I am far more interested in learning why they came to us and what it's going to take to make them happy as a clam. If SH fret ends flips their switch then they can have them - it's just never.... ever....even.....came....up for us that I can recall.




The nibs... a very emotional topic for some repair guys....

They are what they are and they resulted by the way from the methods used to manufacture the instrument making it easier to leave them for the f*ctory than to nix them. The nibs are an excellent example of taking something that was an unintended consequences of cost cutting and calling it a feature....

I'm thinking back several thousand instruments mind you and when I do no one has asked us to preserve the nibs in our current iteration of the business. I can recall discussing it with clients and then they decide that it's not of any value to them to preserve the nibs. We don't bring it up either beyond letting folks know that say in a refret of say a 2006 Gibson Les Paul that the nibs will get nixed while board leveling in our effort to set their expectations correctly. Preserving the nibs is by no means our standard operating procedure nor is it the SOP of any other professional shop that I know of.

But.... there are exceptions to everything and when and if someone wants their nibs we offer this as well and Dave has done them before, I have not had to. It's a process of using acetone and bits of binding material to reconstruct them. It looks f*ctory original when done well which is what Dave does and it looks terrible when we see examples where it was not done well. It also takes lots of time and really has no value what so ever beyond perhaps preservation of a valuable instrument.

The nibs are related to this discussion in so much as the nibs are one way, the way Gibson also used, to not have to file to a pleasing feel and shape the fret ends....

So we offer the nibs (although not proactively with this being a very long walk on a short pier to do....) and we charge for the nibs too. Not a "punitive quotation" mind you but that's crossed our minds.

When refetting say that 2006 Gibson we let it be known that the nibs will be nixed in the board leveling process and so far none of our clients have had any reservations about this and voiced same. The nibs are a nit but you are right they do come up from time to time perhaps as a test of of the qualifications of the repair person to see what they will say and do. Folks want to know if they are leaving their baby in proficient hands...

We find that having the capability to do it all and the willingness to do it all too.... for a price.... gives everyone the best opportunity for happiness going forward. That price thing plays an important role at times in separating what's really important to the customer from what is not all that important.

And then there are also professional standards which seem to be about as agreed upon as the film "The Interview..." I had no interest in seeing this film until, of course, someone tried to tell me that I could not see it.... then my interest went way up....

I know exactly what you mean , but I always like to put the epithet "so-called" in front of "semi-hemispherical" (which is what I assume you meant to say ... you can't put a hemispherical end on a T-fret )

The point being of course that if you put a true semi-hemispherical end on a fret, then you actually have less real estate on the top of the fret than if the fret end were bevelled at 35 degrees (which is way too steep, as Hesh said)

What I do is bevel the end at 15 degrees, put a true semicircular profile on the width of the fret end, and then soften the arrises to make the fret end feel smooth and slick. And yes, I call that a "semi-hemispherical" fret end, for want of a better description, even though technically it isn't, which is why I always refer to it as "so-called".

I also (on my own guitars) dress the frets with a file to approach a triangular profile, (like Phil Petillo did, even more radical than the softening of the school bus profile which Hesh described above) which makes the guitar play far slicker than the school bus profile, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms ...

Thanks Murray and I hope you don't mind if I herein refer to semi hemispherical fret ends as "so-called" semi hemispherical fret ends because you are right, this is exactly what they are.

Not to digress but Bob's little wood block that he groves and lines with self-stick paper to sand his frets. I have to ask since we have 20 - 30 different sizes of fret wire that folks select from is this a single block with one grove size fitting all of do you make a new block when a fret wire size not previously used is selected?

Along this line of discussion I found it interesting that on another forum where there are more pros participating and it's repair centric in the forum's very nature a poster when addressing getting scratches out of frets after a refret mentioned that he counted his strokes. An off-line conversation ensued because I wanted to know what the counting was all about and if I can use this technique in Vegas...

Serious though the counting was all about the idea that with any sanding of frets there is the possibility of adulterating the level set obtained in the leveling process. The idea behind counting strokes when sanding frets is an effort to at least have a uniform approach to anything that might change the level set of the fret plane. Interesting I thought to myself. Since then I have been asking others and this counting stokes thing seems to be widely done in the trade more so in some geographies than others.

I don't count my strokes but my laziness seems to be a decent governor of sorts although not as mathematically precise as actually counting... Lots of ways to do this stuff.

Lastly some of the books on fretting will advise you to "tonk" the fret ends down at an exaggerated angle..... I disagree with this for the entire point of this discussion, it reduces valuable fret top surface and in this case creates a downward sloping angle encouraging the string to slide off the fret end. Not unlike a true semi hemispherical fret end. Most of the guitars that I built early on were "tonked" and now I'm sorry that I did this. But not anymore I am pleased to say...

Yea that is pretty much what I call hemispherical fret end although you are correct it should have the prefex "Semi" I did do full Semi-hemispherical fret ends on my parlor because I wanted to give the look of the period guitars that had the frets installed right on the top.



Yea it is pretty easy to do, just take a small piece of soft wood and lay 120 grit on a fret that you just installed sandpaper side up. Then a couple of swipes with the block and you have the impression of the fret in the board. Now just stick your sandpaper on the little "tool" and it is ready to go. I use to tape up a fretboard prior to working on frets but since I started using those little Stew Mac guards it is a pretty quick way to crown frets and it doesn't leave scratches since I go over them 2 times with different grits (120 and then 220). I still use my files but I am finding the little block of wood works quite well and the last few fret jobs I have done that is what I have used. It seems to leave the frets much smoother than the crowning file so they are easier to polish.


Bob

Diamond files can leave very few scratches too - one of the things that I like about them. That's why they come in different grits as well...

Not sure if you answered my question about one size little block fitting all but no biggie, the block idea is not something that I'm interested enough in to try and here is why.

With fret files I can see my progress in near real time without removing the file from the fret (pulling back but not removing gives me a glance of my progress or not...). It's a bit like a strobe effect too but you get used to it in time... With your little block the little block is covering the fret, right, and to see if you have gone too far you have to lift or remove the block, right?

As mentioned one size fitting all does not work for us with everything from very narrow mando wire to todays jumbo wire. As such we have many crowning files in narrow, medium, and jumbo that we can draw from when appropriate. We also have most files in different grits too making life just dandy!

I'm also failing to see how the little block idea to remove scratches does not also take material off the top of the fret and if it does not how do you know? With the crowning files or a three corner file we work to the visible line (once in a while beyond too but we won't mention that... ) with the little block the little block obscures the line if one is even used to work toward preserving the fret plane level set.

We have the fret board shields too and never use them. Reason why is in our world we often have to recrown frets that are too short already for the files to crown and not hit the board. Put a guard under there and you lose the .010" of clearance from the fret crown to the board and the file may not contact the crown as a result.

Instead we safe our crowning files when necessary which it used to be more necessary than it seems to be with the brand new ones we bought last week. This is end of the year for us so this is also when we buy stuff, lots of stuff tooling up and getting comfortable for more growth and lots of new business.

Back to the fret board guards that's a tool from Stew-Mac right? That's where mine came from too. So for you guys who rail against purchasing proper tools for the trade even to the point of being critical of others... what made this tool purchase OK but it's not OK to say purchase any other special tools?

With this said and what about the very nice Laguna band saw pictured in your shop pics? Did you make that yourself?

Interesting question, eh?

Why I can fart the higgs boson particle at will and cut any wood that I want with a microscopic particle stream of higgs bosons but only after eating shrimp cocktails so I don't need no store-bought, commercial offering band saw..... Please note smily face..... The vitriol here even when I'm being the jerk I have to admit that I'm not all that comfortable with... Reminds me of the very fine film Full Metal Jacket and a statement that had something to do with peanuts.....

Thanks

Hesh,
You didn't hear me say I make all of my own tools did you? I am sure I have a few hundred dollars wrapped up in specialty tools. I have fret files, nut files, and a multitude of other purchased tools but I am making a guess here that just about any guitar repair guy/girl and luthier has tool boxes full of shop made tools, jigs and contraptions they have come up with to do specific jobs. I am positive you have many of those things in your shop. As has been said many times before that there are many ways to do a single job and I am always looking for simple ways to achieve the same goal. This entire profession is based on making your own specialist tools that do a job better or easier. A hundred years ago there were no luthier supply stores so most of the tools you buy today were shop made tools. Yea, I know you are going to say "Welcome to the 21st Century" but I happen to enjoy trying to invent a new mouse trap and there is a certain "romantic" draw at making tools that do a job well.

As for the wooden tool I use for crowning frets. It isn't a single shape that I use. it is custom made for that set of frets. I sand the shape of the "just leveled" fret into it by putting sandpaper grit side up over one of the frets. I then run the piece of wood over it making the exact impression into the wood. The the stick-it paper gets stuck to the wood with the groove in it. The sandpaper is just enough to dress the fret and just round out the flats from the file without taking much off the fret. I know you don't really care and it is too low tech for you to use something as simple as this but I am not asking you to... As they say... "Different Strokes"

As for knowing when to stop it isn't any different than using a fret crowning tool.. I count strokes.

Cheers,
Bob

Counting strokes has nothing to do with fret crowning or using a fret crowning file. It's part of the sanding and polishing process. We don't do it, I simply brought it up because it was interesting to me. It is however indicative of a perceived need on the Luthier's part to not ruin the level set of the leveling process which is right minded in my view and certainly an important consideration.

You crown a fret until it's, well... crowned nothing more nothing less. Any specific number of strokes is moot because every fret may have different levels of material to remove as well as different regions of that specific fret that may require more material removal or less as well. Again counting stokes was a notion pertaining to sanding and polishing frets, not crowning them.

I think I get the little block thing now and you need different little blocks then for different wire and possibly heights too. Now it makes sense.... So it may be that you may need more little blocks than we need fret crowing files since our files could care less what the height of the fret is.

We purchase what represents the most value for our clients with no ego or false notion of a perceived need to be McGiver interfering with that laser focus on the most bang for the buck for our customers. Much of what we use, likely far more than most... is shop-made AND the ideas were part of mostly Dave's innovative side. From saddle slot mills that can do far more than a plow plane... to fret buffers, to nut slot depth gauges, to fret seating punches, to the leveling beams we make or a small threaded insert only used to remove a specific Martin model necks innovation is no stranger to our shop. Head stock clamping jigs that were so well received by other industry pros that many have made their own from ours... So I get that but we also won't hide behind a false premise that being a Luthier also means turning a blind eye to the best solution for the job because we may have to pay for it or it's not easy to make ourselves or somehow we are more manly because we only use what we produce.... As such and being fully aware that this is a forum for builders mostly the notion that innovation only is permitted and sound, time tested commercial tools are not allowed is both short sided and and in reality patently false in the trade.

Again I offer that there are lots of ways to do lots of things in this trade. This does not mean however that that the Luthier who selects certain tools for the value and quality that results from their use is any less of a Luthier than the folks who purchase nothing and prefer little blocks. It also does not mean that what you or I might envision and even make a reality tool wise is necessarily going to provide superior value and results for clients because we excreted it.... Sometimes we will have better ideas than the commercial solutions, sometimes not so much.

At the end of the day and I will always return to this idea - it's the value provided to the clients that matters not specifically how one gets there.

I beg to differ....

Why would one not count stokes when taking the most material off and the count them when they are taking little or no material off?

Bob

Semi hemispherical fret ends - I did that for a while and they do look really nice when they're done right. Not one single person that looked at and played the guitars noticed them. Usually I got a "nice action" comment or something to that effect. So I thought, well screw that, I'm not putting all that work into something that no one even cares about.

I have been wondering why the typical bevel angle is so shallow so glad to hear it from you Hesh. I've got several fret jobs to do this week and I'm going to take the information from this thread to heart.

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

With today's dedicated fret crowning files be they diamond or conventional, push or pull or both they are used to form gentle and uniform crowns (curves.....) on the fret tops refining the gentle curve until the line, you know about the line don't ya Bob, the line left on the fret top from the leveling process is approached on both sides of the fret. The line is refined to still be present but now very narrow and hopefully uniform. The line represents the leveled fret plane and preserving the line preserves the level set achieved in the leveling process - a good thing...

The files are used as I said earlier to work toward but hopefully not past the line. How many strokes it takes to get there is completely irrelevant and will vary not only from fret to fret but in different regions of the very same fret.

Why? Because when you level the frets not every fret has the same amount of material removed and therefore the amount of crowning required on a fret by fret basis varies widely. This concept is so very fundamental to fretting by it's very nature that anyone and everyone who has ever done even a single fret dress or refret will have understanding of the the notion of working to the line AND know that counting strokes when using say a modern, dedicated fret crowning file is useless, not necessary, not relevant, and pretty far off the mark of the intended goal which is, again - working toward the line.

Fret work is both craft as well as art and the tools that we use to do fret work in most cases require the judgment, skill, and knowledge of the user, the Luthier to do the job correctly. There is no specific number of strokes and instead what gets the job done with that specific tool for that specific fret is the goal.

In any fret work discussion we are not only speaking of refrets but also fret dresses. Although with a well done refret some uniformity of the amount of material to be removed will be achieved if the board was leveled well providing all new frets with an equal start in life height wise. In a fret dress it's often the case that some frets will have copious amounts of material removed and other frets may only be kissed... by the leveling beam as an indication of both contact as well as the level set being reached. As such the frets barely kissed by the files may have only a stroke or two needed if that.

As mentioned we use three corner files too at times such as very low frets that are difficult or impossible to crown with commercial fret crowning files diamond or otherwise. Again the number of strokes required has nothing to do with a specific number and everything to do with stopping when the fret is well crowned based on observation.

Hey Steve: That's been my experience as well and no matter how much time one spends on fret ends patiently shaping them to perfection it's rarely noticed by the client. Mind you I'm not advocating nixing any aspect of craftsmanship or refinement that anyone else enjoys doing and would even offer that regardless of what clients think I appreciate those who go for the last percentage of perfection and I know first hand that some clients will appreciate this.

What seems to be noticed the very most is how the ax feels to play. That is something that is usually the very first thing commented on.

Yet another area where we can shine beyond the stinkin f*ctories is fitting both bridge pins and end pins. It takes a few swipes of a reamer and all of about 3 minutes to do well but regardless f*ctories are often missing this step these days. Proud pins on the bridge will be noticed by folks who lay their hand at times on the bridge either intentionally or not. A proud end pin has in some cases been an obstruction to even putting the thing in it's case.

It's another nit, a very small thing that also if you think like I do (scary eh....) represents an area of differentiation for Lutheir built instruments over f*ctory instruments.

There are lots of things that IME are stressed over on Lutherie forums that play little or no realistic role in the reality of the trade. This entire thread could be an example as well in that what clients want is the thing to play well for them. How we get them to that point may not interest them in the least. Results matter.

Stainless frets are another example. Some builders were so very excited when stainless was new to them... that they proclaimed that all of their instruments would now be exclusively stainless. Although stainless likely lasts longer (actual testing underway at our place....) it's pretty likely that if anything the client won't notice or if they do there is a 50/50 chance that they may object based on some opinion either developed on their own or from some other source. It's important that the things that we decry as features are actually of benefit to someone too.

Decent fret work and set up is very much something that gets noticed and noticed at once too. IMO it's potentially the greatest source of potential product differentiation that a builder can exploit to their advantage in search of significant commercial success through the acceptance and sales of their wares. If a client struggles to play one of mine or yours it's not likely that they will also want to spend thousands for the right to struggle more into perpetuity.

Don't know if this has happened to anyone else but I recall putting one of mine in the lap of a prospect and the very first thing that they noticed was the stinkin commercially available p*ck g*ard.... The pick guard of all things.... Here's old Hesh working hard on making new and more interesting hernias somewhere on my body trying to produce the very best guitar that I can and what gets noticed is the pick guard....