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Ed Haney
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:40 pm 
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meddlingfool wrote:
So Todd, are you saying that even with 7" ducting a 5hp blower rated at 1800 cfm will still only provide 1200 cfm max at the machine? That's enough for my needs I guess but I'd rather have a bit of extra suck.


Yes, Todd's numbers are correct. You can see what I was saying about the advantage of a 7" main which gives you the ability to handle anything in a one man shop with enough cushion take care of dirty filters, leaks, hose runs (hose has much more pressure loss than pipe), real life, etc. But with 7", some extra HP is needed and 3HP can become borderline. Bill P. has a good Excel spreadsheet free on his site. I used it to calculate SP etc. to help make decisions. Have you used it or something like it?
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meddlingfool
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:55 pm 
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No, not yet. My computer won't let me use it. I'm already thinking I should look for 5 hp. I'd like something that I can add machines too. Eventually I'll have a jointer and a thickness sander.
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Chas Freeborn
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:01 am 
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Okay everybody, put down the calculators for a minute.... a 10 x 12 shop, that's basically a small bedroom and your maximum duct run is what, 6 feet?... running 1 machine at a time? You've got to be kidding. The 2 hp Oneida will pull your toupee off at that load. Quite frankly, I doubt it will even develop it's full cfm choked down to a single 4" machine hook up.

For such a small shop, get one of the pleated filter 1.5 hp Jet type units, keep the filter clean and call it done. You're way over engineering this...

Concentrate on positioning the shroud(s) to maximize it's efficiency. Here is how I re-worked the collector point on my edge sander. I added a second pick up in front to catch the overspray the factory hook up let get by:


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Mark Fogleman
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:26 am 
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meddlingfool wrote:
So what do you do to get more CFM?


If you've minimized resistance in the piping you have three choices: A bigger fan and motor, add extra filter area or straight pipe the exhaust outside minus the filter. Make sure you have clean make up air coming in the opposite end of the shop and no gas furnaces or hot water heaters in your shop if you go the straight pipe route.

(wow...a Dust Collection and a SawStop thread in 2 days! Eat Drink )
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meddlingfool
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:50 am 
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Well it's a 10x12 shop today, but hey I feel optomistic so I want to plan ahead.
Chas, have you read Bill Pentz's site?
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SteveSmith
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:46 pm 
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Even in my small shop, I'll stick with my 2 hp Oneida, thanks. I took the time to do the engineering and ran the numbers when I installed it and designed the ductwork. I wouldn't want anything smaller for the hazardous dust you can't see.

Just my 2 cents.

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Ed Haney
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:55 pm 
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Certainly shop size is a factor for sizing a dust collection system, but may not always be the deciding factor. Other factors are the number of machines that run simultaneously and the type of machines.

For my small one-man shop (8'x20') I was only concerned about running one machine at a time (not unusual). The key factor was the worst case machine requiring the most air (not unusual). This is a table saw (800 to 1000CFM). My belt sander, miter saw and band saw require nearly the same. I decided that a real 1000CFM would be my minimum target capacity for a system with 4000FPM minimum duct velocity. This is in line with Bill Pentz's recommendations. So my shop size was not the key factor, nut I paid close attention to my dust collector's fan curve considering SP loss for actual ducting size and lenght and loss for filters, etc.

One 4" duct will supply about 350 to 400CFM. Splitting that one 4" with a 'Y' into two 4" lines will give you about 175 to 200CFM for each of these. The work of Bill Pentz and others indicate that this would not be effective for healthful dust collection. With enough system capacity, instead of using a 'Y', taking both 4" connections back to the main duct would result in both having 350 to 400CFM instead of half that.


Last edited by Ed Haney on Sat Jan 15, 2011 8:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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meddlingfool
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 12:54 am 
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True that!
I was looking at the 3.5 Penn State, but I think I'll up it to 5hp for another 2 bones. I'm attracted to the doubled filters PSI has. If someone can point out a reason why these systems are inferior to something else I would appreciate the input. I've done a lot of reading but much of it is over my head. I need to act soon as I'm noticing a slight but distinct reaction every time I enter my shop, and a noticable drop in respiratory fitness. Maybe just from getting older but....
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Michael Smith
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:56 am 
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I didn't go with the 5 hp due to the electricity draw and more money. You figure you maybe have a sander going, maybe a space heater, kick on the 3HP tablesaw and the dust collector at the same time and that is a pretty good draw. For me the 3.5 has proved to be plenty. My shop is only about a thousand square feet. I keep my table saw gate open at all times and have plenty for any other machine I use. My band saw has two 4 inch dust ports so I ran a 6" drop and gate for it then Y ed to each port.

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Michael Smith
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:04 am 
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I didn't go with the 5 hp due to the electricity draw and more money. You figure you maybe have a sander going, maybe a space heater, kick on the 3HP tablesaw and the dust collector at the same time and that is a pretty good draw. For me the 3.5 has proved to be plenty. My shop is only about a thousand square feet.

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meddlingfool
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:06 am 
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Hmmm...
Electricity. The water that flows from walls which I also completely misunderstand. There is a 440v and a 220v. What ought I get?
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Ed Haney
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 8:41 am 
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meddlingfool wrote:
Hmmm...
Electricity. The water that flows from walls which I also completely misunderstand. There is a 440v and a 220v. What ought I get?


440v is 3 phase. Your home has a single phase system. It will be more practical to use single phase 220V for most people, what you home has. I ran a separate 220V circuit from my main panel into my shop so that I had plenty of power for the 5HP collector AND other 220V machines simultaneously. The major cost is electrician labor, not materials. In other words, wire for 20Amp or 40A or 60A is not much different in dollars since my run was short (about 20 feet in my garage). For me, it was $20 more for 60A wire compared to 40A. So I just paid the little extra and ran the 60A 220V and mounted a $30 Home Depot sub-panel which gives me a lot of flexibility for future power needs. My 110v currently comes off 3 different 20A circuits to my shop so everything is not loaded up on the same breaker.

PM me if you want more info.

Ed
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Ed Haney
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 8:49 am 
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Todd Stock wrote:
There's a limit on how much air is going to get pushed through a duct at practical velocities...even after minimizing the static pressure losses in a duct system, you're still stuck with whatever CFM limits are associated with the branch or mains ducting. Removing the filter reduces the total system SP, but that may have absolutely no effect on the CFM seen at the machine if the ducts are undersized. The flip side of this is where the ducting is properly sized for the desired CFM and branch and mains velocity, but the cyclone will not produce the required CFM at the inlet...that's where reducing filter losses, going to a more efficient inlet (1" SP loss is pretty standard for inlet loss), or removing the filter entirely would do a little good...but probably no more than -1.5 to -2.5 SP total.

The only advantage to an oversized cyclone/undersized ducting system that I see is that you can pull 300-400 CFM out of multiple drops, provided the mains are sized to handle it, and in that case, why not just properly size the branches and drops? The bottom line is that more than 4-5 feet of 4" anything (spiral, welded, PVC, flex) is going to choke the branch or drop to 350 to 400 CFM max, so unless your cyclone is simply not able to produce much in the way of CFM (old 1.5 hp internal filter Oneida; most older 2 hp Asian systems), go with 6" for the entire system for a 2 to 2.5 hp and run 6" to 7" on the branches and larger mains for bigger systems that can produce both the required velocity and CFM at both the inlet and at the machines.



Yes. Sound facts.
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Mark Fogleman
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 8:59 am 
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Chas Freeborn
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:19 pm 
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I read through the Pentz's site back when I was researching my purchase. A lot of good info there, but he is a bit of a fanatic.
Woodworking is inherently a dirty business, so IMO you're going to have to accept that and decide for yourself what is an acceptable level of exposure. If you have sensitivities to certain (or all) materials there isn't much better protection than a good respirator, either half or full mask.
As for all the electrics, for the 2hp Gorilla I ran a dedicated 20 amp 220 v circuit with 10 gauge romex I got at Home Depot. My panel and collector are in opposite corners of the shop (approx 35') and have never popped the breaker. It's just not all that complicated....
-C

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meddlingfool
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:32 pm 
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So far so good, thanks everyone.
From what is being said I gather that to actually accomplish 1100 at the machines, a 5 hp machine rated at 1800 cfm with 7" ducting and 6" drops is what I need.
As for electicity, my breaker box has 5 open slots left on it. Looking at my 220 edge sander hookup, a 220 is just 2 normal 110's stacked. So I think I should be good. But I'm not touching it myself, I'm sure I can have a knowledgable friend wire things in upon his return from Australia.
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Michael Smith
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:37 pm 
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meddlingfool wrote:
Hmmm...
Electricity. The water that flows from walls which I also completely misunderstand. There is a 440v and a 220v. What ought I get?



440 Volts!! I really doubt that. You rarely see those voltages in anything but certain industrial buildings. 440 volts would be of no use to you. You there, put down the screwdriver and step away from the electrical.

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meddlingfool
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:16 pm 
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No danger there, I ain't touching it. I shall purchase a 220 machine.
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