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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:46 pm 
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Why would you wait 4-6 weeks with an EM6000 finish? It's just the headstock...no curves, should be practically level off the gun. Level it, scuff it up, shoot 5 coats of 6000 (all in one day), and level/buff next Sunday. Or shoot 10 coats over two days and buff it next Monday.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:11 pm 
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EM6000 takes a while to burn into previous coats if there's too much time between coats. If it's been less than two weeks since you finished spraying and you're sure you didn't sand through the EM6000, you may wish to wait a few days and then polish it and see if the lines go away. I've seen this many times and polishing later usually solves it. Another approach is to spray another coat or two and be sure you don't go through those when you level and polish. I've used EM6000 and its predecessors for years. I like it a lot. The only improvement I'd like for the next version is some adjustment of the surface tension so it doesn't run away from edges and will flow into small holes (like pores as the pore fill shrinks).

And with a good gun set right, orange peel isn't an issue with EM6000. You can spray a wet coat that almost doesn't need leveling.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:38 pm 
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John,
I thought you needed to wait about a month to let the finish shrink back and harden before you buff... Can you buff after only a week?

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:01 pm 
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I believe 150hrs is the cure time...

Look how your lines have moved farther in from the edges. Look at the difference in the sheen between the inside area and the outside area. Look at how more sanding has made the outside area larger and opened up a hole around the e string tuner. You've gone through the finish and into the pore fill, but not through the pore fill into the wood (lucky for you...)

You need to respray (or FP) to make that go away. If you keep sanding and buffing, you'll go through your fill and into bare wood, and then you'll need to sand back all the way to wood and fill again, or else you'll have blotchiness.

Lightly scuff to 'tooth' the surface with a scotchbrite pad, and respray 8-10 coats. You don't need to worry about it burning in to the previous finish, as the new layer will grab onto the old, and you're down to epoxy anyway. Then carefully sand level without going through the new layer starting with 800 or 1000 and buff.

This assumes you used an epoxy pore fill, which, unless I missed it, you haven't answered...


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:02 pm 
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sdsollod wrote:
John,
I thought you needed to wait about a month to let the finish shrink back and harden before you buff... Can you buff after only a week?


I usually wait a week, level and buff. Maybe it gets harder after a week, but I've been happy after a week, although I'm generally not hot on the product that much anymore and have switched back to nitro.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:06 pm 
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John Coloccia wrote:
...although I'm generally not hot on the product that much anymore and have switched back to nitro.


John - may I ask what turned you off to EM6000 and turned you back to nitro? I'm just curious what issues you encountered. Thanks.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:32 pm 
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Its sand through Steve. Nothing more, nothing less. If you keep sanding it, the spot will get bigger and bigger until the EM6000 is gone.

Which is one way to fix it. As in sanding it all off, reapplying the undercoat/filler and reshooting em6000.

Another way is to just apply more em6000 (you can brush it on) but it may not look good if the undercoat is not intact

And the third is to apply some zinnser seal coat to the sand through area then em6000 (it might hide an uneven undercoat)

Just my opinion

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:35 pm 
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CharlieT wrote:
John Coloccia wrote:
...although I'm generally not hot on the product that much anymore and have switched back to nitro.


John - may I ask what turned you off to EM6000 and turned you back to nitro? I'm just curious what issues you encountered. Thanks.


Sure. It's not that 6000 is a bad product. It's a fine product. I find, though, that it just doesn't have the same depth as nitro, especially on figured woods. A couple of coats of shellac under the 6000 seems to do wonders for making it look better, and for furniture work and things like that I think the 6000 product is a fantastic solution. For guitars, it just leaves me kinda of flat.

Other have gotten better results, but it's just not really working for me. Lately, I've found it's next to impossible to get information direct from Target (they seem to selectively ignore questions) so I've just given up on it.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:14 pm 
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John Coloccia wrote:
Sure. It's not that 6000 is a bad product. It's a fine product. I find, though, that it just doesn't have the same depth as nitro, especially on figured woods. A couple of coats of shellac under the 6000 seems to do wonders for making it look better, and for furniture work and things like that I think the 6000 product is a fantastic solution. For guitars, it just leaves me kinda of flat.

Other have gotten better results, but it's just not really working for me. Lately, I've found it's next to impossible to get information direct from Target (they seem to selectively ignore questions) so I've just given up on it.


Thanks for the info, John. I don't see myself having the ability to spray nitro anytime soon. I've had some luck "brushing" 600 but want to try spraying, so I am very interested in others' experiences with the product.

Interesting that you have had trouble communicating with Target. That's been my recent experience as well.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:53 pm 
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I found that the right gun and setup make all the difference in the world for 6000. I use this gun from Homestead Finishing, based on Jeff Jewitt's recommendation. I have the QS600WB. Great gun for not a lot of money. I have it setup for the DeKups disposable cup system. Sprays nitro well too.

http://www.homesteadfinishingproducts.c ... y.htm#guns

Cheap guns will just give frustrating results with lots of orange peel.

I do highly recommend DeKups no matter what you do. We spray so little material (except Chris who sprays gallons at a time pfft ) that DeKups is a godsend to keep from wasting material, and also to temporarily store tinted material while spraying so you can do touch ups if needed. Great system. I use the smallest cups...9oz, I think. It's the perfect size for shooting one guitar at a time.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 4:08 pm 
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John Coloccia wrote:
I found that the right gun and setup make all the difference in the world for 6000. I use this gun from Homestead Finishing, based on Jeff Jewitt's recommendation. I have the QS600WB. Great gun for not a lot of money. I have it setup for the DeKups disposable cup system. Sprays nitro well too.

http://www.homesteadfinishingproducts.c ... y.htm#guns

Cheap guns will just give frustrating results with lots of orange peel.

I do highly recommend DeKups no matter what you do. We spray so little material (except Chris who sprays gallons at a time pfft ) that DeKups is a godsend to keep from wasting material, and also to temporarily store tinted material while spraying so you can do touch ups if needed. Great system. I use the smallest cups...9oz, I think. It's the perfect size for shooting one guitar at a time.


John - thanks very much for the gun and cups recommendation! Now you've got me thinking. Any thoughts on an inexpensive compressor option? :D


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 4:35 pm 
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CharlieT wrote:
John Coloccia wrote:
I found that the right gun and setup make all the difference in the world for 6000. I use this gun from Homestead Finishing, based on Jeff Jewitt's recommendation. I have the QS600WB. Great gun for not a lot of money. I have it setup for the DeKups disposable cup system. Sprays nitro well too.

http://www.homesteadfinishingproducts.c ... y.htm#guns

Cheap guns will just give frustrating results with lots of orange peel.

I do highly recommend DeKups no matter what you do. We spray so little material (except Chris who sprays gallons at a time pfft ) that DeKups is a godsend to keep from wasting material, and also to temporarily store tinted material while spraying so you can do touch ups if needed. Great system. I use the smallest cups...9oz, I think. It's the perfect size for shooting one guitar at a time.


John - thanks very much for the gun and cups recommendation! Now you've got me thinking. Any thoughts on an inexpensive compressor option? :D



I don't know what you consider to be inexpensive, but this is available for under $400.
http://www.dewalt.com/tools/compressors ... 55168.aspx

I use this one, and have been happy. I had a large, 5hp 60 gallon when I was doing airplane building, but I downsized to this. I haven't really missed the big one, to be honest. I even run die grinders, drills and things like that off this guy. I haven't really had any issues to speak of. I like that it's oiless, so I don't have to worry about contaminating lines things like that. It's remarkably pleasant sounding for an oiless compressor...doesn't sound like a 500lb mosquito that most sound like. Not as pleasant as my old one, but not too bad.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:32 pm 
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John Coloccia wrote:
I don't know what you consider to be inexpensive, but this is available for under $400.
http://www.dewalt.com/tools/compressors ... 55168.aspx

I use this one, and have been happy. I had a large, 5hp 60 gallon when I was doing airplane building, but I downsized to this. I haven't really missed the big one, to be honest. I even run die grinders, drills and things like that off this guy. I haven't really had any issues to speak of. I like that it's oiless, so I don't have to worry about contaminating lines things like that. It's remarkably pleasant sounding for an oiless compressor...doesn't sound like a 500lb mosquito that most sound like. Not as pleasant as my old one, but not too bad.


Thank you, John. That gives me a good idea of what I need to look for.

What kind of airplanes did you build? RC or the real deal?


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:42 pm 
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CharlieT wrote:
John Coloccia wrote:
I don't know what you consider to be inexpensive, but this is available for under $400.
http://www.dewalt.com/tools/compressors ... 55168.aspx

I use this one, and have been happy. I had a large, 5hp 60 gallon when I was doing airplane building, but I downsized to this. I haven't really missed the big one, to be honest. I even run die grinders, drills and things like that off this guy. I haven't really had any issues to speak of. I like that it's oiless, so I don't have to worry about contaminating lines things like that. It's remarkably pleasant sounding for an oiless compressor...doesn't sound like a 500lb mosquito that most sound like. Not as pleasant as my old one, but not too bad.


Thank you, John. That gives me a good idea of what I need to look for.

What kind of airplanes did you build? RC or the real deal?


I was building an RV-7, and then a Bearhawk. When we moved back east, we decided to get out of it. It's far too expensive to fly around here, especially to hangar around here, and the weather makes it so that I can't really stay comfortably current (not for FAA purposes, but for actual real safety purposes). I need to line up nice days, cash and time, and that just doesn't happen as often as it did out west. I'm a sunny day flier...or at least not so cloudy night flyer. I don't enjoy instrument flight. I'm OK at it because I learned to fly under the hood on partial panel from day one (T&B, Airspeed, Altimeter and wet compass....and sometimes less when my instructor was being sadistic). I hate it, though. I don't enjoy going from point A to point B. Out west I did, but I always did it in a Citabria...occasionally I'd take out something else just to stay current in a tricycle gear, but I'm a stick and rudder kind of guy, and I'm happiest flying low and slow in a Champ, or doing aerobatics in a Citabria. If I ever moved to Alaska, I'd have a nice Citabria or a Husky. That's my comfort zone. Mountain flying, tiny fields, burning holes in the sky. Put me under foggles and I'd rather just fly commercial. It's cheaper, faster, and far safer.

I was also renting a 7KCab for about $80 wet out west. When I moved to the dessert, the price went up to $100 wet. Out here, good luck finding one. I suppose I could putt around in a 172 or a Cherokee, but that's not my thing and it's a LOT more expensive. Maybe it's because I learned to fly in 7ECA's that I just never developed a taste for having my head buried in the cockpit, but it is what it is. I haven't flown in 5 years. I do miss it, and I hope one day I can get back to it. Maybe I'll pick up a Taylorcraft one of these days. There's a Champ hanging up at my local Cabella's. I always think to myself, what an incredible waste of a beautiful plane.

www.ballofshame.com
I documented my RV-7 and Bearhawk builds...at least as far as I got. The Bearhawk is a hell of a plane. I flew one at one point. Responsive as all heck considering how big it is. Really nice. Fast, too, considering the design. Even does some "gentleman" aerobatics (not sure I'd want to do outside snap rolls, but it's utility rated and handles loops, rolls, hammerheads, etc so long as you keep positive G's and don't let all the oil out of the engine).


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:42 am 
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Wow, building an airplane makes a guitar seem pretty tame. That’s wild! I thought you were talking about building RC planes, which I did in a prior life.

Flying sounds like a pretty major commitment in terms of both time and money. Looks like fun though!


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:59 am 
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I have a friend who built an RV-9, sold it and build a 7 or 8 (front back seats). The RV-9 was a pretty plane. But small(ish). He took me for a ride in it one day. Being used to commercial airplanes, one is never quite prepared for the "feel" of one of those planes. You feel everything. :)

Mike


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:11 am 
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Yep, nothing is inexpensive about flying. I built an RV-9A airframe (ie firewall back) about 10 yrs ago but had to sell it at that point due to financial constraints. Great project though.
This is what it looked like when it was finished.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:30 pm 
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Hey Steve,

I am a bit late to the party, but having used EM6000 on quite a few instruments over the past four or five years, I have seen most everything including the witness lines you have.

First to fix it, you don't need to sand back to bare wood, simply swab the surface with DNA, let it flash off, then shoot another four to six coats, and level and buff as you normally would.

What causes these witness lines and how to avoid them?

1) Old finish. The shelf life of EM6000 is not that long. The properties added to the finish to enhance burn in break down over time. I won't use product older than 6 months if I plan on buffing and polishing for this very reason. Always use fresh lacquer!

2) Waiting too long between spray sessions. EM6000 will burn in to previous coats if you are recoating within 24 hours, best within 12 hours. Wait longer than that to recoat, and you risk getting these witness lines. If more than a day has lapsed since my last coats, I'll level the finish good, swab with DNA, then shoot the fresh coats.

3) Too thin of a coat. A thin, dry coat may not properly burn in to previous coats. Be sure to lay down a good wet coat of about 2 to 3 mils, especially that first coat of the session.

Check for any of the above issues, get a good level base prior to shooting your final coats so you don't have to be so aggressive when leveling prior to buffing, then shoot 5 to 6 coats during your last session, and if at all possible, do that within 12 hours of shooting your previous coats, and your witness line issue should be a thing of the past.

Ken

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:21 am 
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John Coloccia wrote:
I found that the right gun and setup make all the difference in the world for 6000. I use this gun from Homestead Finishing, based on Jeff Jewitt's recommendation. I have the QS600WB. Great gun for not a lot of money. I have it setup for the DeKups disposable cup system. Sprays nitro well too.

http://www.homesteadfinishingproducts.c ... y.htm#guns

Cheap guns will just give frustrating results with lots of orange peel.

I do highly recommend DeKups no matter what you do. We spray so little material (except Chris who sprays gallons at a time pfft ) that DeKups is a godsend to keep from wasting material, and also to temporarily store tinted material while spraying so you can do touch ups if needed. Great system. I use the smallest cups...9oz, I think. It's the perfect size for shooting one guitar at a time.


John,

I was checking out the QS600WB with the DeKups system and it looks like a really nice upgrade for what my finishing work. Did you need an adapter for the DeKups system? Do you have a good source for the DeKups?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:27 am 
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Mike O'Melia wrote:
EM6000 absolutely will melt into new coats. I am not attempting to contradict anybody on their experiences with other finishes. However, there is a resistance to proper melting if the substrate is already highly sanded/polished or it has cured for a long time. You must rough up the surface and/or activate with DNA. None of this applies to concurrent application of build coats. They melt quite easily. The only issue here is orange peel. And this must be dealt with early on by sanding flat after 8 coats or so then getting back to the schedule.

Mike


These were my thoughts as well. I rough up the surface a bit with 400 grit if it has been a day or more since spraying the last coats. I've seen this as well!

Trev

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:25 am 
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Ken C (above) made some very good observations. All of which I agree with. I also learned something new about shelf life.

Thanks Ken.

Mike


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:07 am 
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SteveSmith wrote:
John,

I was checking out the QS600WB with the DeKups system and it looks like a really nice upgrade for what my finishing work. Did you need an adapter for the DeKups system? Do you have a good source for the DeKups?


I buy everything from my local automotive paint store. It does need the adapter (they all do). The specific one you need has 11 stamped on it. I believe it's the one for Sata/Iwata/Astro guns, part DPC-11.

Once you try something like DeKups, you'll never go back to anything else. It's not expensive, either. I think the adapter and starter kit cost less than $50.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:09 am 
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John Coloccia wrote:
SteveSmith wrote:
John,

I was checking out the QS600WB with the DeKups system and it looks like a really nice upgrade for what my finishing work. Did you need an adapter for the DeKups system? Do you have a good source for the DeKups?


I buy everything from my local automotive paint store. It does need the adapter (they all do). The specific one you need has 11 stamped on it. I believe it's the one for Sata/Iwata/Astro guns, part DPC-11.

Once you try something like DeKups, you'll never go back to anything else. It's not expensive, either. I think the adapter and starter kit cost less than $50.


Thanks, I'll be picking that up soon - I've got a good auto paint store here that I go to already.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:29 am 
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That's good advise Ken. I'll be re-shooting this weekend. This was my first experience with the Fuji system and using EM6000. My first coats may have been on the dry side, until I got my technique down....

Thanks for everyone's comments.

I was planning to mask off the sides of the headstock with tape since they came out fine and I don't want to get new finish on them. Is this a good idea? Is there anything else I should be aware off...?
Steve

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:46 pm 
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Steve, I wouldn't mask off unless you have buffed. But It won't hurt either. Just make sure you get plenty of finish on the edges. You want to build up just enough finish to level and buff. If you have a good level base, 5 to 6 coats should do. If your em6000 is old, try to get them down within a 12 hour period. Bear in mind that the thicker the finish, the bluer it will initially appear. You may want to sand back a few coats if you fear your finish may be overly thick.

Good luck!

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