Official Luthiers Forum!

"Funny" does not belong to just me. Fire at will with the jokes, good sir.

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http://www.CostaGuitars.com
PMoMC

"Funny" does not belong to just me. Fire at will with the jokes, good sir.

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http://www.CostaGuitars.com
PMoMC

It helps if you have a repair business. Then you likely have a regular set of people coming through that you can sell to.

If you don't want to do repairs and just build, then you'll likely need an outlet.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

That's REALLY funny

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Thank You and Best To All

Here's another part of the story, not applicable to all makers, but certainly some:

I do some consulting in the industry and get to see the quality return reports from the retailers. Way up the top of the list of "defects" are finish issues, minor dings, colour bleeds etc. Way down the bottom of the list (at less than ~1%) are sound issues. Now where are manufacturer going to focus their attention?

I was checking out guitars one day at one factory and the "high end" guitars sounded "weak" let's say, compared to the cheaper ones. A few more enquiries revealed that they put nearly twice as much finish (polyester) on the "high end" instruments compared to the cheaper ones, both to hide the dings in the woodwork and to make the guitar look shinier. So nearly all the expensive guitars sounded quite a bit worse than the cheap guitars. I demonstrated the problem to them by getting them to pull a cheapo ply guitar off the line, before finishing, stick a bridge on and string it up. In "the white", it sounded way better than anything else they had, including the all solid premium wood guitars. And they were all able to pick it in a blind listening test that I put on for them, as well as rank the other guitars pretty well by finish thickness just by listening to them.

All driven by quality reports dressed as customer feedback.

For steel string instruments the bar is pretty low. One reason for that is that "amateur" builders often aspire to "building a guitar as good as a M____n", not realising how much improvement there is available in the average factory guitar that you can buy at a main street store.

Yet another issue is not differentiating between an acoustic guitar and an acoustic-electric...

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Trevor Gore, Luthier. Australian hand made acoustic guitars, classical guitars; custom guitar design and build; guitar design instruction.

http://www.goreguitars.com.au

Interesting point Trevor.

Agreed - and as I look back I think the 'dull' sound I was hearing could very well have been a symptom of too much finish on the guitars.

After all we do indeed want our tomatoes looking good - no matter what they taste like - so once again we have met the enemy....

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Thank You and Best To All

To be honest I'm not a great guitarist too. I'll play a guitar and think it sounds like crap then hear the same guitar played by a friend and it sounds great. So maybe it's you. I'm not defending factory guitars but they are a very necessary thing in the real music world. Who here when they were fifteen could have afforded a guitar in the $5 grand range unless mom and dad were rich? So store like sam ash and guitar center are not really selling guitars for advanced players or custom guitar builders. They are selling to beginners..Mike

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Guitars, guitars and more guitars.

I don't know, perhaps a true musician will want quality guitars but the one I know is constantly broke. Everyone else (who aren't really musicians) will buy something based on brand and assume that if it says Martin or Gibson it must be good. Gibson sells really well in Taiwan because of its name, not because of quality. I still haven't managed to sell a guitar even though I can produce something better than Gibson. I have a sneaking suspicion that nobody in Taiwan will go with a small builder unless he's extremely well known worldwide... it's just that brand mentality.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

That would not surprise me in the least. I'm a poor player at best and have had very little exposure to musicians in general so I'm not the best judge. Most of my playing is on the couch and never anything like a performance where the guitar player's needs are much different, and whose skills are much greater.

I remember seeing Takamines all over the stage and never understood why as the sound was again to my ears not so great. Then I read that they are GREAT road guitars which explained a lot and they sounded fine for their intended purpose.

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Thank You and Best To All

I wasn't considering the skill to build as an "ingredient", of course.

Sure a top chef can make a great cheap burger, but I wouldn't be surprised if he preferred working with the higher end ingredients to work his magic on.

I feel the same way about luthiery, and from the small builder perspective, the $60 or $70 top is not THAT much more than the $20 or $30 top IMO for the experienced builder. For me I love seeing the silk rays cover the whole top, it gives it incredible character, and is something I can point out as a conversation piece with prospective customers.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

My 1st guitar sale I put a Martin to rest. My 2nd sale, I put an Ovation to rest. Beating out on Ovation wasn't really fair. LOL People really like knowing the person making the instrument. Its like a buying a painting right from the painter before anyone has a chance to buy it. Its good stuff for everyone.

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Jason Moe
LaCrosse WI 54601

An addendum to my story above...

Being paid to provide solutions, I came up with three or so possible options. One 'out of the box" solution I suggested was that they sold a line of guitars with no finish on, called Nudie or Bear or something, also supplying a small bottle of Tru-oil or similar so that the purchaser could finish their own guitar (or not) as they chose (shades of Haight-Ashbury, etc.) Given that finishing is ~50% of production cost I was interested in how they would reject this idea, as it was obviously too radical to fly. The value proposition for the purchaser was a great sounding guitar at a really good price which they could personalise. The reason it didn't fly - it would make all their other expensive lines sound like cr@p. Make of that what you will, but if anyone starts such a line, I want a cut!

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Trevor Gore, Luthier. Australian hand made acoustic guitars, classical guitars; custom guitar design and build; guitar design instruction.

http://www.goreguitars.com.au

Another thing is that the average consumer is more impressed with shiny good looking guitar than sound.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

And shiny good looking red tomatoes instead of tomato taste.

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Thank You and Best To All

I bought a custom D-18 from one of my dads neighbors with the back off, the bridge plate had cracked and he repaired that. I got the back on and played that guitar for 20 some odd years till it fell off the wall and the sides split. It was a fantastic sounding guitar. I guess I've been kind of a "sound snob" because of that guitar. I bought a Martin in 1997, it has the "sound" but I probably played 100 guitars and this one stood out, and still does. A great factory guitar is a great guitar. I've played quite a few custom guitars that were ho hum, and a few that were absolutely magic.

While reading this thread I picked up and played an old Weymann guitar I repaired (reset neck and made a new bridge). For a cheap guitar it sounds and plays pretty good. It doesn't have that "Martin" sound, but sometimes that is not what I'm wanting. Players who play to an instruments strengths rather than it's weaknesses can often make mediocre instruments sound great. I've heard guitarists play slide on a tinny , whiny, cheap Harmony which they preferred to their Martin, for that particular use.
The most decorated guitars of a maker have always cost the most money. There is more work involved in building them, as we all know. Makers don't build an instrument, play it, then add upgrades, so how can they know which ones will be outstanding and deserve the added ornamentation? "High end" usually means better fit and finish, but not necessarily better sound.

"One 'out of the box" solution I suggested was that they sold a line of guitars with no finish on, called Nudie or Bear or something, also supplying a small bottle of Tru-oil or similar so that the purchaser could finish their own guitar (or not) as they chose (shades of Haight-Ashbury, etc.) Given that finishing is ~50% of production cost I was interested in how they would reject this idea,"


Hey Trevor,
Have you ever taken your own advice? After looking at your website your guitars look pretty shiny! Would you sell one for 1/2 off sans finish?
I'm sure you do a great finish that protects the guitar without affecting the sound too much. Buyers expect a shiny finish on an expensive guitar. A thick lacquer finish is harder for a less skilled polisher to burn through, which is probably why the factories do it.

It might take a while to develop a taste for the way some guitars sound. Not all guitars are supposed to fill a room with jangilly resonances floating on top of a full bass woofer. Some great instruments may sound thin and quirky in a lone setting yet in a mix will fit in well.

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Ken

So when I have not even managed to sell an instrument does that mean I did something wrong? People said my instrument sounded great but they wouldn't put the money down for it either.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

The easiest way to sell is to get that big reputation (chicken egg I know). At one time I did repairs in a retail outlet that sold factory, new makers and the occasional big name. I've seen and heard some very ordinary sounding Classical Guitars ( by big name makers with a big price tag) fly off the wall. Never underestimate the power of the name on the label.

Especially in Asia where name means more than quality. People here only wear name brand things.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

I do charge quite a bit less for non-pore filled, fairly plain guitars. ~$4.5k vs ~$7k plus for the flasher, custom stuff. Not 50%, but heading that way. There's no real difference in the sound; all the acoustical engineering is the same. I sell a lot more of the flash ones than the plain ones. Tells you something about about buyer values...

It's interesting when you look into the reasons for the thick finish. Polyester can be electrostatically sprayed to a finished film thickness of 0.6mm in one hit. And a guitar gets two or three hits. Scary. Stroke sanding gets rid of ~50% of it and that's the risk area rather than buffing. The main reason for the thick film is that it will render invisible just about any production ding in the woodwork and there is a potential to collect lots at the speed they get chucked around a busy plant. It's really all about speed and convenience in production. Before they hit the spray shop, these guitars are pretty reasonable, sound good to the tap, neat woodwork etc. (plus a few dings!) The finish kills them. Dead. Check out the density and damping characteristics of polyester.

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Trevor Gore, Luthier. Australian hand made acoustic guitars, classical guitars; custom guitar design and build; guitar design instruction.

http://www.goreguitars.com.au

Todd Stock wrote:

"My guess is rather than doing anything wrong, you just did not get enough things right. I have sold two custom guitars to a local repair/pro player guy...he saw my first, 3rd, 4th, 8th, and 9th before he saw and heard what he needed to commit to a commission...in other words, there was not enough 'right' with numbers 1-8 to cause him to commit. Keep building and recognize that it's not enough to build instruments that compare well to factory stuff - you have to be better than the other small and mid-size shop and custom options as well, or set the price so low that you are competing with factory stuff. Sucks, but that's the way it is. Even if you manage to sell all of your early production, it's useful to have a very critical player handy to let you know how your stuff stacks up against your real competition. "

That right there is something some of us need to hear.

I went in to the local Martin dealer, a small shop but they have been in business quite some time and picked up one of their new models and it was very nice. It was probably one that everything went right but it made me want to quit building.

I need to get more things right for the real players to really think about buying. The few I have sold have gone to friends and family.

Thanks Todd.

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Wisdom is justified by her children

A couple of comments...

First, what sounds 'good' is purely subjective. Enough people think these guitars sound 'good' to keep the factories in business.

Second, I think that any acoustic instrument needs exercise for the voice to open up. The sound matures to something typically 'better' once the instrument is played regularly for a while.

And new strings don't hurt....

Regards,
DT

Wierd things happen in the brain when you hit a good Acoustic specialist and play loads of instruments.... I go all wierd, the brain starts to try and compute whether the credit card + trade in can be done... twisted logic takes hold as you desperately try and figure out what you can afford... I say that as someone who is an average player, but appreciates tone and build.

I have played some wonderful factory made instruments, vintage and new. From Martin, Sant Cruz, Collings... (sorry never played a decent new Gibson and Taylor...well just not for me ... all MHO of course) What we tend to forget is that we like what suits our style of play - I play open tunings, DADGAD and others and tend to go for the more 'Lowden', smaller but deeper bodied guitars... yet I have a Martin dread (a 97 HD28V) which was so good when i first strumed, I traded an equally great SCGC OM pre war... which I miss... you see as a player, I want one of everything, but cant afford that, so end up like many trading in, and getting something new... now and again... and its one of the reasons why so many still go brand name...resale value... allows us to constrantly change despite better, greater, custom luthier instruments being available.

But the reality is that whilst I have what in MHO is a great Martin.... there is one instrument that I tried but did not buy that I will always regret... simply because it is the best guitar 'I' have ever played (NB. note I say 'I' as I have heard better players make complete dogs sing sweetly - where style and technique is either suited perfectly or they are simply able to pull out the best... played a $3500 1954 Martin 0015 recently - when I played it sounded like a child's guitar - then heard it in hands of a really good blues picker and it was sooooo sweet)... anyway back to the guitar I would have sold the wife an children for had that still been legal

Cocobolo, German Spruce hand crafted by Gerald Shepperd.... this thing just sang, the most responsive, dynamic instrument I have ever tried, but try as I could I could not work out how to make up £6500 ($9000)... This was not lust, this was love! If I can ever build an instrument that sounds a 1/4 as good, I will be happy....

Factories, can build a good guitar, just less consistently... but the quality from a good single luthier is so way above - just many still have issues and worries about resale... my mission in life is to get more guitarists buing custom hand made!