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I think PC's are way better than Macs and they're cheaper too!!

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Thank You and Best To All

what a sad and misinformed post. No one will see the dovetail so how is it a demonstration of skill? With proper jigs and technique a dovetail can be made as fast and easy as any other neck joint. I could easily build a guitar with MT and tell the customer it's a dovetail and they would have no clue because they CAN'T see it. And as Peter pointed out faster and easier is cheaper for the customer. Also cheaper for a neck reset later. It's very customer friendly. And many people who commission a custom built guitar will most certainly be hanging onto it as long or longer than a martin.

Yes youre correct, the topic was sound and since great guitars are built with both systems my conclusion is there is no difference in the sound.
I guess we should start another thread about the pros and cons of MT and dovetail. To save time though I will just repeat what I stated above.

That right there? That's funny.

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George :-)

It's a matter of preference, but the bolt on hardware adds quite a bit of weight. Players who are used to vintage instrument are going to want dovetail and you need to be familiar with both mounting schemes if you want to do into repair, but specifically dovetail because a majority of the guitars out there, especially vintage guitars use dovetails.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Your forgot that race car parts (made of metal) doesn't swell or shrink over time due to humidity differences. Metal can expand or contract based on temperature but nothing so dramatic, at least at room temperature. Wood on the other hand can shrink over time, making a once tight bolt loose. Happened to a customer's low end Martin and he panicked because he has no idea of the mechanic of the guitar. I know compression washers can be used but I wonder if it's enough.

By the way the Martin in question was a glued MT joint, but once the bolt lets go the glue can't really hold on.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

guitar necks, zero. Dovetails on other parts and components (mostly metal and mostly done on CNC but not all) it would have to be in the thousands. And using manufacturing experience I am 100% certain that with the proper setup I could whip our dovetailed necks with the same ease as with mortise and tenon necks. I'm not saying that it isn't a skill and I'm especially impressed with the skill of those who can do them by hand. But with modern tools and techniques you can take the "skill" out of it. I've seen and heard (I believe even previously in this thread) that some people claim they make a dovetail neck as quick and easy as a MT.

Like I said I'm in no way downing the dovetail neck or the talents of those who make them. I'm simply saying that it can be just as simple to make wig the proper set up.

Well this month I had 2 guitars in my shop with glue failed joints , both bolt ons. I also have been doing this for 14 years so I have seen a thing or 2 many of you haven't. I do this for a living. I have not seen a dovetail fail.

I agree that the neck joint has little to do with the tone. Fillipo you look at the shear force applied to a bridge and a neck joint are 2 different things entirely , The ball end of the strings are actually helping to hold the bridge on the top as the strings are pushing down at the saddle, the glue fails as the top deforms and peels off the bridge. If the plate is so worn the ball ends can then push the bridge off the top , the glue joint surface area is larger on a bridge than neck joint plus there is often end grain involved in the neck block.

How many necks did you do Fillipo ? Tuners are in a hole that is a ridiculous statement. It seems you are trying to make it a personal attack. I am stating facts of the mechanics of the joint. I am not saying they don't work , I am stating the areas of weakness in the joint.
There are 2 types of bolt on, glued and non glued. Either will at some point need to be retightened , Wood shrinks bolts don't tighten themselves.
Martin has now stopped using mortise neck joints and now use a simple dovetail joint. I think I have seen a few more things as a repair center than the average hobby shop.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Ok, i did have a dovetail fail, it was a restoration and I have no idea what happened because it should not happen. Basically the neck came loose and the fb extension came unglued. I do not know if it was due to heat exposure or just a bad batch of glue... I had problem with hide glue failing over time, where the joint somehow released the wood as though it was wax paper. I reglued it with titebond original to make sure it doesnt happen again. To be fair it was a 12 stribg and there appears to be a bit of missing wood on the dovetail that had to be repaired. Its one of those mystery...

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

I do repairs for a living and have also seen quite a few dovetail failures come through the shop needing work.

Whoever says ANY neck joint is bulletproof doesn't know what they're talking about.

I haven't seen many bolt neck failures, nor any bolts come loose ever.

I attribute that to the fact that most bolt-neckers use some kind of thread lock,

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Old growth, shmold growth!

Of all the dovetails I have seen fail most were stressed or had a glue failure. I agree no joint is bullet proof. If you haven't seen a loose bolt you havn't looked hard enough. This is a known fact on Martins.
Lets looks and agree on a few points.
NOT ALL BOLT ON JOINTS ARE THE SAME.
Martin used 1 bolt and relied on glue
this one is a known failure.

There are bolt on joints that use 2 bolts and no glue but glue the extension

there are joints like Taylor that bolt the extension and main joint

then there are the bolt on neck joint that the extension is part of the neck itself.

they all have their strength and weakness.

If I had to rate them from experience I would rate the single bolt glue joint the most unreliable
The true bolt on with the extension supported by the neck one of the best.

2 bolts are much better than 1 and steel bolts better than brass.

When glue is involved the block grain orientation is also important.

there are different styles of hardware to attach the bolt threaded inserts , barrle inserts etc.

Is there a perfect neck joint NO

Is there one better than another ? A good design , is that , a good design.

If one is looking for weight , the dovetail is the lightest design. The neck blocks are also part of this .
Sylvan Wells used a well designed bolt on neck.
I know he helped many down in Todd's area and I assume they are using a similar design.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

lets us agree that it comes down to design and craftsmanship.
there are some good designs out there but poor workmanship will make it useless. that works both ways in dovetail and bolt on.
as for bolt on I know I would not use a martin design. The design I do use is a double bolt with a threaded insert and a glued on extension.
The only reason I like this one over the others is that is has less weight than say a Taylor design. Todd brings up good points about the wood choices and grain orientation.

The end result is simple the neck says on and holds the stress. If the workmanship is inadequate no design will work. Joint integrity is as important as design.

I think we can agree that the 1 bolt glued neck is inferior to all 2 bolt designs. Personally a good bolt on won't need glue. In all cases the joints have to be stronger than the stresses applied.

In all cases there are the mechanics and engineering of the joint. It is hard sometimes to close the door to the opinion we form and discern the facts involved .

May we all agree to disagree without being disagreeable. After all reading a sentence if often different from hearing it spoken.

If I had the opportunity and time to experiment on a joint , here is what I would like to see. My toolmaker and machinist back ground would make it a 3 point connection. I think I had seen a similar design a long time ago No joint but 3 studs coming out of the neck block. There would be 2 cups on the upper heel that would fit on the 2 studs coming out of the block. These would be adjustable to set the centerline angle and can be adjusted but a jam nut but the string tension would hold this on. Intonation adjustments would also be done as you could in all intents adjust the compensation length of the neck to the saddle.

on the bottom of the heel would be a stud that is connected to the neck and secure. This would penetrate the neck block. The threaded stud would be captured by a barrel nut in the neck block and can be locked with a jam nut on the heel side. This would allow you to adjust the neck angle without a lot of work.

The extension would have to be made to be part of the neck and pocketed to the top of the guitar.

there have been many adjustable neck joint through the years. For all I know it most likely has been done before.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

A little like this one? http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Museum/ ... aiser.html

that is it
you have a lot of adjustability but it is as non traditional as it can be

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

That 12 string dovetail failure had a poplar neck, the wood is soft enough that it could compress to cause the lifting issue... not much I could do about it except to patch what was missing and reglue it.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

There you go. Now if that was a glued joint you wouldn't be able to get away with gaps like that.

Not much to add to the discussion, but I've had the pleasure of sitting down in Rick's shop and playing this guitar. Pleasure being the key word. Rick's guitars aren't light, but they're loud and ballsy.

Filippo Morelli,
I had my say yesterday and wasnt going to add anything to it but you called me stupid. This kind of attitude has no place on this forum. We are all giving our opinions as we would if we were at a coffee shop talking guitars. Keep it nice.

itswednesday14 wrote:
I love a light guitar. A little here and a little there and a little off the neck joint and you can shave a pound off the weight of the guitar. So plus one for the dovetail.

1oz≠1lb....not even close being that your statement is a 93.75% error....fits into my definition of asinine...

sure, everyone has a right to an opinion, but when facts clearly demonstrate the error of said opinion then said statement should be called out so that others don't spread such errors around...

AFAIC your overbearing politically correct way of acting (as demonstrated by your instigating the situation then going and crying to mommy about it all) is what doesn't belong on this forum or in real life...in fact I am getting rather sick of people creating situations then blaming those that rightfully respond with the truth

The Martin Mortice and Tenon joint is a poor example to use in this discussion about bolt on necks.
As far as I am aware it is considered a glued mortice and tenon with the bolt there merely as an assembly aid.

As Todd has said, there is often a fairly wide tolerance and thick glue line which is prone to failure.
That is the problem rather than the single bolt, which is not in this case intended to hold long term load.

In terms of resisting string load, the upper bolt in a double bolt joint actually does very little anyhow.

To be fair, he didn't say the neck hardware could increase or decrease the weight of the instrument by a pound; he said that a little here and a little there adds up collectively. If you believe in building as lightly as possible, even shaving 8 oz. off a four pound instrument could be significant. In that case, shaving an once could be a "material" concern.

On the other hand (goes without saying), not everyone believes in building light.

there are 2 schools emerging , those that love bolt on,s and those that don't.

At this point I see this thread starting to get personal and I can no longer participate.

Many beginners that get into this hobby are exposed to the Martin neck , and that is a fact. Many assume this is what a bolt on is , and we all know different. There are many methods some good some not good and from an engineering stand point that 2nd bolt does indeed carry load and in many ways can carry the load very well.

goodbye

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Actually from a true engineering standpoint, the bolt furthest from the strings is the one which takes the vast majority of the load from string tension, Once the fretboard extension is glued, the upper bolt could be removed without harm.

I've used both but mostly the Cumpiano type M&T with a reinforced tenon and a bolt on fretboard extension. Probably close to 50. It's uncommon but the bolts can loosen if the guitar gets dry. I've seen it happen. I'm not sure Loctite is a good idea as the loosening seems to come from shrinking of the head block rather than the bolt backing out and a thread adhesive would not help that. Anyone out there using something like a Belleville washer on their bolt-ons?

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

I had no idea neck joints was such a controversial topic, I thought this type of "heat" was reserved for discussions about glues and finishes... Stick around John, I don't think anyone tried to attack you personally.

Actually, I'm not surprised of the OP's question. There are lots of unsupported theories, old wives tales and speculation regarding neck joints out there, including claims of acoustic superiority of one type of joint over another. Check out K. Yiari's web site http://www.yairi-france.com/#/dovetail-neck-joint/3113409 "...But the truth is that a bolt on neck does not transmit the sting vibration in the same way. It just sounds dead and disconnected from the body." There are others.

I usually use a barrel nuts and bolts, but I've done some dovetails too. In my experience they are more fiddly when you use mostly hand tools, but in a more industrialized setting, I'm not sure they necessarily are more work. There must be millions of various brands of Asian steel string guitars with dovetail neck joints, many of them unfortunately glued in with epoxy or some mystery glue, so they can be quite difficult to disassemble neatly. So can some of the American ones, for example a straight '70's Gibson type joint can be significantly more difficult than a traditional Martin joint.

Neck bolts can certainly come lose, that is in fact a pretty common problem with some of the guitars I've had in for repairs. It might have something to do with the climate up here; humid summers, dry, cold winters, which leads to a lot of wood movement. Its a lot easier to fix than a lose dovetail joint, though...

I'm not too concerned with the weight of the neck joint hardware, after all it is placed in a very rigid part of the instrument, so I don't believe it does much for the sound one way or another. Since it is also pretty much in the middle of the guitar, it has minimal effect on its physical balance, whereas a similar change in weight at the far end of the neck can be felt, which is one reason I'm more concerned with the weight of tuners.

Now, if you want a real challenge, try a compound dovetail on a F5 mandolin sometime. Its a very functional and beautiful thing when it done right, but boy, talk about nightmare to fit! Thankfully, there are alternatives, which may not be as "traditionally correct", but they are easier to fit, and equally strong.

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin