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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:19 am 
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Koa
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Also, for this app you definitely need dewaxed shellac. If you are using pre-mixed shellac like 'sealcoat', let it gas out for a few days before top coating. Cheap insurance.



These users thanked the author Greg B for the post (total 2): Glenn_Aycock (Wed May 20, 2015 5:40 pm) • Cablepuller (Fri Feb 27, 2015 1:35 pm)
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:22 am 
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Koa
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Sanding sealer shrinks like crazy it is not a pore filler -- some use shellac and pumice or saw dust. I prefer the commercial products. Zpoxy, Pore o Pac, and Timbermate. Get your surfaces prepped to 220g "scratch free" before any finishing products are applied.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:43 am 
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Koa
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I didn't say that sanding sealer was pore filler. If used, it should be after pore filler. It shrinks, but not nearly so much as a thick coat of lacquer.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 11:23 am 
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Koa
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Just clarifying that the fillers in a sanding sealer are not the same (or as much) as products designed to fill pores. Matter of fact I get this question a lot "why can't I just used heavy coats of sanding sealer to fill the pores" and of course the answer is it shrinks like crazy.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:02 pm 
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Koa
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Gotcha. Good point to clarify. Sanding sealer is not pore filler.

While were at it, it might be a good time to point out that if Z-poxy is used to pore fill, sanding sealer would be completely superfluous, as it forms a dead flat surface on its own, at least it should if done right... :) That so, it's more laborious than paste filler IMO.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:16 pm 
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Koa
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+ 1 for Zpoxy once the Pacer tech support confirmed that Zpoxy was totally compatible with nitro and acrylic lacquers it has been my pore filler of choice. I like the clarity and I like the slight amber color. I have used many gallons of Behlens Pore O Pac but I am glad those days are behind me. I certainly agree no sanding sealer would be necessary. I do use a vinyl sealer prior to top coats -- I know there must be pro's and con to that too.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:21 pm 
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I use sanding sealer simply because it does build better than straight lacquer, but only as a final seal right after epoxy.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:37 pm 
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kencierp wrote:
Sanding sealer shrinks like crazy it is not a pore filler -- some use shellac and pumice or saw dust. I prefer the commercial products. Zpoxy, Pore o Pac, and Timbermate. Get your surfaces prepped to 220g "scratch free" before any finishing products are applied.

Cheers ken

Still totally lost im afraid

There are so many differing ways and i have now bought loads of different sealers/fillers/oils/nitro and dont know what to use
Spent a small fortune :(
The trouble is i have over researched everything and bought stuff then got differing advice now cant spend anymore lol

Is it worth me starting a new thread with a picture of all the stuff i have bought and then hopefully get a simple process/schedule from start to finish with what ive got .

Cant face buying anymore stuff lol

Cheers though all for the advice so far


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:01 pm 
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Koa
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The problem with finishes is that there's 5 billion ways to do it.

Lets start from the beginning. What is it that you've already got on hand?

Combining Ken's advice and my original schedule, you could try:

1) Zpoxy pore filler - enough coats and sanding to get a dead flat surface

2) shellac sealer

3) 3-4 coats matte or satin lacquer, off the can. (should be OK if bugs don't land in it)

Epoxy fill is sort of a PITA, but the upside is it looks nice. Also, you can keep putting more on until you have enough.

BTW - Oil finish will never look like the posted photo. Sorry dudes.



These users thanked the author Greg B for the post: Cablepuller (Sat Feb 28, 2015 3:39 am)
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:15 pm 
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Koa
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Quote:
BTW - Oil finish will never look like the posted photo.


I try to not say never but I tend to agree

Yeah post your supply list -- just have to make sure of compatibility but I am pretty sure you are good to good to go. What did I just post that was confusing? -- Hate when I do that!

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These users thanked the author kencierp for the post: Cablepuller (Sat Feb 28, 2015 3:39 am)
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 3:34 am 
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Greg B wrote:
The problem with finishes is that there's 5 billion ways to do it.

Lets start from the beginning. What is it that you've already got on hand?

Combining Ken's advice and my original schedule, you could try:

1) Zpoxy pore filler - enough coats and sanding to get a dead flat surface

2) shellac sealer

3) 3-4 coats matte or satin lacquer, off the can. (should be OK if bugs don't land in it)

Epoxy fill is sort of a PITA, but the upside is it looks nice. Also, you can keep putting more on until you have enough.

BTW - Oil finish will never look like the posted photo. Sorry dudes.

Image


This is the collection

Tru oil - read it was easy but then heard bad things

Special pale french polish - to keep the soundboard light colour?

Rustins sanding sealer -

Osmo water based grain filler (paste)-

Rattle can satin nitro cell spray-

3 x wood stain (water based) red mah, walnut, dark oak- bought for neck stain

Any good?

Thanks in advance


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 3:41 am 
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Tru oil is great for necks. Makes a durable finish that also plays real well. It also pops the grain for woods like mahogany/koa as well.

As for rattlecan nitro, not all will work because a lot of rattlecan nitros are modified with too much plasticizer, and therefore won't dry hard. Reranch makes good nitro rattlecans but they are expensive. Makes a compressor/spraygun worth it over the long term if you have space for it. Then you can just use Seagraves and not worry about what works...

If you want to spray Seagraves and don't have a compressor, Preval spray unit might work if you're careful. It also allows you to spray color when you're too lazy to clean sprayguns (color is a lot harder to clean compared to clear) or if you want to spray 2k

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 7:09 am 
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Koa
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Well I am not familiar with any of those products. And most importantly there's no evidence that they are compatible and that is a major problem. It's always best to use a complete system, so I would suggest Behlen's products they even have specific coatings for musical instruments. I actually prefer rattle can application and no longer use our spray guns. Much rather spend a little more for the convienance - proper maintenance of spray equipment is critical, and for us its too time consuming.

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http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/



These users thanked the author kencierp for the post: Cablepuller (Sat Feb 28, 2015 7:32 am)
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 7:16 am 
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Koa
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That's a lot of Tru Oil. You need to store that bottle on it's head, otherwise you'll be wasting 90% of it.
If you spray make sure it's done safely. Some of this stuff can be nasty.



These users thanked the author Michael.N. for the post: Cablepuller (Sat Feb 28, 2015 7:32 am)
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 7:41 am 
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Koa
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Great point regarding health and safety - yes spraying finish can be nasty, (even rattle cans) you must wear a respirator a dust mask is of little value. BTW you can get a fabulous finish using TruOil -- I can only assume the bad things you heard were the result of mis-use of the product. Jonathan Kinkeade for one uses it for his top of the line models.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 8:57 am 
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kencierp wrote:
Great point regarding health and safety - yes spraying finish can be nasty, (even rattle cans) you must wear a respirator a dust mask is of little value. BTW you can get a fabulous finish using TruOil -- I can only assume the bad things you heard were the result of mis-use of the product. Jonathan Kinkeade for one uses it for his top of the line models.

Ken

Thanks i have got kinkade book didn't realise he used tru oil
Heard its wood deadening on some website i went on (did to much research)
Might be worth going back to that idea
Cheers


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 9:39 am 
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Koa
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Its amazing how many "space aliens" are guitar making hobbyist, these creatures can hear and some times see things that we mere mortals are totally unaware of. There are fabulous sounding guitars with finishes made of poly u, varnish, shellac, tru-oil, nitro and acrylic lacquers, polyester regular and pre-cat formulas and it goes on and on and on. Just don't glop the finish on so thick like decoupage and you'll be just fine. Here's my friend Dave's Tru-oil demo and I think he has another for pore filling with the same product.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6zmitxywKU

http://www.acousticguitarconstructionfo ... ?f=28&t=14

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These users thanked the author kencierp for the post: Cablepuller (Sat Feb 28, 2015 10:45 am)
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 10:11 am 
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Koa
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Looks like you have plenty of stuff already. Do be careful about mixing and matching. It's probably a good time to mention the cardinal rule of finishing: TEST ON SCRAP!

Assuming that rustins sanding sealer is lacquer based (?), and the french polish is shellac, you seem to have everything you need to do a lacquer finish, except enough cans of lacquer. I'm not familiar with those brands though, and you most definitely try on a scrap piece to see if they behave. I'm not familiar with the Osmo wood filler. That one worries me a bit, as some of the water based fills I've tried are pretty useless.

Since you have plenty of tru oil, doing the whole guitar in oil is one good option, and there are lots of tutorials to follow. It won't look exactly like the picture, but it will look good. Perhaps this is the simplest and easiest option.

Or you could do the neck in tru oil, and the body in lacquer.

Thirdly, you could FP the whole thing. Just decide on an approach and stick to it.


BTW, don't concern yourself with worrying about the finish's effect on sound. Everything else makes 1000x more difference. The longer I've built instruments, the less I've cared.



These users thanked the author Greg B for the post: Cablepuller (Sat Feb 28, 2015 10:46 am)
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