Official Luthiers Forum!

But if he likes the way it plays, why not? Is there some physical difference between an Ovation that enables it to achieve lower action & better play-ability?

Kevin Looker

_________________
I'm not a luthier.
I'm just a guy who builds guitars in his basement.
It's better than playing golf.

One thing that I don't think has been mentioned is neck thickness. I see that it has been recarved to a C shape, which is good, but is does the Ovation have a thinner neck? That alone will change how hard it is to press down the strings.

This noobie can't believe how much difference nut height can make! I spent a lot of time getting the neck the way I wanted it, leveling and dressing the frets, bridge height, using a capo on fret-1, and making adjustments as described earlier.....only to ignore the nut height as an equally important adjustment. Somehow, that capo on the first fret diverted my attention from the nut. Once I went back and corrected it, I was amazed at how much easier the action was. And I would have described it exactly as "too much tension", when in fact that had nothing to do with it. But that's just how it felt. Of course, most noticeable on the first few frets.

too high of a nut is very noticeable, especially for strummers who strums open chords all the time! Do note that almost all factory guitars have a nut that is way too high. I think the expectation is that you take it to a guitar tech to sort it out. Unfortunately it is impossible to ship a guitar that is perfectly setup out of the box anymore than you can ship a guitar that's in tune out of the box. Factories sell instruments all over the world and it wouldn't be possible to have something that fits all climates.

It is also something that most players fail to notice, and something players can't do much about on their own (unless they invest in a set of nut files)

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Is it acceptable to remove a nut and file down the bottom to lower all the strings evenly, or should one always slot the nut from above, then smooth down the top to near the groove depth? or file bottom roughly, then fine tune from the top?

You could, but the problem is if the nut wasn't cut properly to the radius of the neck then it will not solve anything. Also it takes longer to do it this way because I would have to unstring the guitar, remove the nut, sand, reinstall, retune and see what happens.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Hey David - Nuts are cut from the top with proper nut files that will create the shape of the string bottom and in a proper size that will not result in binding slots and that awful tuning "tink" sound from a binding slot.

Some electrics with Floyd Rose style trems use nut like things (NLT) that are traditionally shimmed or ground from the bottom but for acoustics this is not the approach because each individual nut slot may or may not benefit from the same amount of lowering or rising. It's less important on a FR (Floyd) set-up because these nuts slots are not engineered to be individually addressed. I'll add that with 10's or 9's on electrics high nut slots are not as noticeable either, the strings are more flexible.

By the way the last guitar that I worked on yesterday when I was at work, an acoustic had the high e pushing too low and very nearly buzzing, the B was WAY too high. Had I attempted to address the B by milling down the nut bottom the high e would be in direct contact with the first fret.

I have my my own process for cutting nut slots. I've never found a nut file that cut round slots. Have you?

round nut slots are not absolutely essential. Flat is just as good. The shape you want to avoid is a V because it will bind the string causing early breakage. Unfortunately those double edge nut files tend to create V shaped slots...

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Yes, both the current iteration of Stew-Mac's gauged files and some of the Grobets that we have will cut slots with nice, rounded bottoms. In both cases though we mic our files and write on them with Sharpie what width slot they really cut with no side ways manipulation because they are not always as marked from the f*ctory. It's a nit but if I want a .036 slot and the file says.036 but really cuts a .0345 marking them lets me know that I need to scrape the sides of the slot with my technique to get a slot that won't bind with a .036ish string.

About five years ago we did some testing of nut files including close-ups of the resulting slots, bottoms, etc. Both of the two that I mentioned cut nicely rounded slots. We were also a beta site for Stew-Mac when they switched suppliers for the gauged files and had early examples to try out and we liked em a great deal.

Don't wanna high-jack but I just took some pics of some old nuts.... to show the resulting slots. Not easy to get focus with my old cameras but you will get the idea.

These are all replaced nuts that were replaced for one reason or another and the close-up is a nut slot that resulted from the Stew-Mac gauged files. You can see a rounded bottom.

Sure if his Ov*tion is what he likes no problem. No physical differences except for scale length but if all things were equal, scale length, strings, etc. the strings have no idea what's under them.

There are likely things though that do make a difference in feel besides scale length. One example could be that since the Ov*tion has been his ax for a while it's likely that the nut slots have simply worn lower, they tend to do that.... Most new instruments that we see be they small builder built of massive f*ctory built all have high nut slots. There may be other subtile differences that could be detected in the "feel" as well with one example being neck stiffness. Ov*tion is known to use on some models graphite stiffeners, etc. Could be a number of very subtile things combining for a noticeable difference in feel even if both instruments had the same strings, properly cut nut slots, the same action, and the same scale length.

By the way the jokes here regarding Ov*tions are offered out of the sincere belief that what we as small builders are setting out to accomplish and what Ov*tions offer are not the same things in some pretty important respects.

We tend to shun composites favoring good ole wood. Ov*tion not so much and IME what wood there is on Ov*tions can be of lesser quality, lots of runout etc. We replace bridges on them and a couple of days ago I sent one away not wanting to even take it in because when the bridge lifted it darn near tore a hole in the top it took so very much top wood with it.... We could fix it but what we would charge and what this guitar was worth including other issues that it has make the economics not work for the client.

We as small builders endeavor to not piss off the repair guy 30 years from now and use serviceable glues. Ov*tion - not so much, lots of epoxy and copious amounts of squeeze-out seems to be Ov*tion's friend, just wish they could also clean it up....

Although stylistic small builders most always have a nod or two or more to tradition, Ov*tion not so much either.

From a player point of view most of us mortals play seated and are not performing to a crowd where we are standing and a strap is used. Ever play an Ov*tion in your lap.... they keep sliding out of your lap..... and it's irritating....

In general Ov*tions are simply a different take on how to produce a guitar and I even had one in the 80's but don't tell anyone please...

FWIW at one time 1/3 of the guitars sold in America were Ov*tions.... So for me with my business background knowing that Ov*tion just got sold last summer and is moving the remaining production from the east coast to China I also see this as yet another missed opportunity for US businesses....

Anyway much of this is personal opinion on my part but you will also find a plethora of repair folks who hate Ov*tions for the lack of serviceability and generally sloppy construction.

But some people love em and if that's what it takes to keep them playing there certainly is a space for Ov*tion, I just hope it's far from me....

Anybody else notice that on newly cut nut slots the strings "bed in" a few thousands after being retuned a few times? I usually don't go all the way to the ideal depth the first time around.

I like to be sure all the dust is blown out and bend down and look at the end view of the slot to be sure it has a round bottom. My older StewMac double sided files do tend to give a bit of a V shape.

Being nearsighted all my life does have a few advantages, I can take my glasses off and see perfect at 3-4". That's one reason I'm holding off on cataract surgery, I'd hate to give that up. It's a huge help in lutherie.

_________________
It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Hey Terry: I used to have the Stew-Mac double sided files but stopped using them in favor of the double sided, single gauge Stew-Mac files and Grobet files in this same style as well.

Not only do the two sided, two gauge files cut a bit of a V shape that I have noticed too but I find that with the less massive files that I use now one's "touch" is improved without the added weight of the other files. Last Friday I worked on a Heritage version of a 335 and some of the slots were as low as they could go already and the problem was string binding and that "tink" noise when tuning as we watch the tuner jump past our intended stop point...

With the files that I use I can scrape the sides of the slot with very little pressure and widen the slots without risking hitting the bottom and making the slot deeper. Also we take nut slots so very low for the high e and b that sometimes for us the difference between good and not so good is only one very light swipe with minimal finger pressure on the file. This is the "touch" thing that I am attempting to describe. With heavier files the weight of the tool could in these instances be more downward pressure than we want.

Regarding vision I started having to wear glasses to see or work on Lutherie stuff when I was 45 just as they say it will happen and it's sucked ever since... I simply cannot get used to wearing glasses and hate it with a passion.... I also made the mistake of asking my eye doc to set the focus point further out so that it would be more like my bench height when working on guitars.... Now they are too far out to read without holding the book 20" out....

Good luck with the cataracts and I'll try to cheer you up with the same joke that I told my 83 year old Mom when we was on the gurney waiting for her cataract surgery.

Did you hear that so and so has a cataract and I thought that they preferred Lincoln Continentals....

I know, pretty bad but there are not many jokes that I know that are suitable for one's Mom....

HE doesn't actually like his Ovation…it's sound is not even close to the OM, but he plays guitar between 4 and 7 hours a day depending on his teaching and touring schedule and notices that his technique becomes affected by the more difficult compliance (see, I learned a new word and it is just right for what he's describing). He loves the OM, but as the front man for the band, feels his technique needs to be flawless and has not been able to achieve the same level of excellence in his playing.
Interestingly, a player he's going to do a show with, who is in a different band, played it during their rehearsal and LOVEs the OM (maybe just as it is). So I don't have it right now to give you the measurements, but I'm seeing their show on Mar 15 and will hopefully be able to arrange to get it back for a new setup with all of the great advise you've all given me.
The Dread I'm making for Ryan is almost complete and I hope to do a better job on the nut and setup so this one is a keeper for him.