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From Quebec...

I'm glad I'm not the only one. I would actually send that back if it was sold as AA.

I know many vendors use a different scale for red spruce because of it's relative rarity. I suppose this is OK if they are up front about it, though I don't agree with the notion of sliding scales.

DROOLLLL

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

Hopefully I don't trash it;)

Who is selling true master grade anymore? Seems my favorite supplier has been having trouble getting them. I'm kind of tired of tops that look great when I start, then as I sand, little pin knots show up. I only want master grade anymore. I'll pay. Who's supplying?

Umm.. I have true master red spruce.

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Guitar Maker and Purveyor of the World's Finest Tonewoods
http://www.aaronhixguitars.com/
http://stores.ebay.com/A-Hix-Tonewood-a ... r-Supplies

It is and always has been extremely rare, especially in red spruce.

Any reputable seller should replace a top like that for free....even if it is 'A' grade.

It is much, much easier to get tight, even grain in Sitka, so the standards are normally different. However, I have seen all manner of uneven grain, color, curved grain, and compression being marketed as 'AAA' red spruce. Although I do make an allowance for grain width, I never grade any red spruce tops as AAA unless the grain is straight and relatively even. AAA tops should never have color or compression (hard lines).
I would grade the subject red spruce top as a high AA, but only if the runout is much less than is apparent in the photo. I never cut any red spruce with more than a 1/10 spiral. And by cutting from split billets, the runout is minimal on the joining edge, and is less than 1/10 grain slope on the outer edge.

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John

I think much truth here:

http://www.premierguitar.com/articles/2 ... ewoodstops

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

master grade? what exactly does that mean? Is it purely a designation based on cosmetics and grain orientation? I would prefer a top that had a superior sound to one that had a superior appearance. And it's impossible to predict the sound without having the top attached to an instrument. I can certainly understand the marketing appeal of cosmetically perfect tops. But I don't see it as definitive indication of the quality of sound produced by the top.

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Under Compensated Nut!

WilbPorter, That is good you ask that question.
From a production and sellablity standpoint, the aesthetics gets the most attention. When I started this biz, there was no Master Grade. Only #1's, #2's and B's.
The #1 sort was broke into 3 sub-sorts A, AA, AAA or 1A, 2A, 3A.
And certain criteria where applied to differentiate sorts. But still some of it is subjective, and there was still a range in each grade.
Customers would ask to select the best of the 3A sort quite often. So that's how that sort came about. It's the best of the Best in regards to looks. Some of those looks can tell one of it's tonal enhancing properties.
If you want stiff, Strong medularies is a visual that will pretty much guarantee that. But that's only really relevant from logs with a center heart. And stiffness in some trees can still be there, with the sawing @ over 30 degrees off of VG. Like our 3000 yr old Sitka. Very rare! The wood buyer from Breedlove, Bedell and Weber instruments was here a couple weeks ago, and I sliced a round of the ancient Sitka into product while she was watching, and she saw with her own eyes, something really unbelievable. As I checked stiffness after each cut expecting to say, "No More". But went beyond 30 degrees off VG, till the width wasn't there for any size guitar. Then it was too far to get even a mandolin top.
Regarding boards for tone. We have lots and lots of dandies. Because soundboard products is all we do. And all I have done full time for 20 years. I know of great sounding boards just by how they sound and feel when grading them, when my finger print slides across the sanded or planed surface and makes them ring like a speaker. We do custom select boards for customers at their request. That takes time and we only wish to get compensated for our time for searching though hundreds and maybe thousands of sets.
The easiest to do is to order by grade, tell the supplier whats most important to you and get into a good business relationship to know your supplier.
--


Kindest Regards,
Brent Cole Sr. - Pres./ Founder Alaska Specialty Woods Inc.
Ph. (907) 826-3566 or Toll Free N. America (855) 425-9663 [(855) 4AK-WOOD]

Mike, you can certainly count on Brent Sr at Alaska Specialty Woods for what your after. We didn't nurture and grow the 500 yr old trees we cut. But we have a big variety, and it's all salvaged. No clear-cuts or green trees were killed to produce our products, too.

I believe the term 'Mastergrade' was coined in the 1970's by Bill Lewis. It was used to describe wood that was "perfect" in all areas.
He thought perhaps only 3% fit into this category. No color, fine even straight grain, no runout,stiffness, etc ......
Bill really knew his stuff and was happy to share with anyone interested. He sold thousands of tops as well as making guitars.
One of his electrics was purchased by a young British kid who went on to record an album with it called Dark Side of The Moon.

Brent

Look what came in a box...

Where the wood was cushioned inside like it was expensive and important...

Sealed to keep in the fresh flavor...

Now that's what I was expecting as a Mastergrade top! Thanks Aaron!

Nice top, Ed! And Aaron! What are the other wood selections that go with this top, Ed?

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

Flamed Padauk/flamed maple

And then they asked for 70$ for shipping the replacement...?

I think they are using the "recoup-our-losses-because-he-won't-be-a-repeat-customer" shipping calculator.

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

I think instead that I will attempt to return everything and see what happens.

Stepping back from the grading process:

Products need to be fit for the intended purpose. The seller wasn't just selling wood; she/he was selling wood intended for the purpose of constructing a guitar soundboard out of two book matched pieces of spruce. When the wood shows up needing to be glued back together in order to make two book matched pieces of spruce, you didn't get what you paid for.

My recommended path forward would depend on your relationship with the seller. If you think they will make it right, then giving them a chance to do so is good for that relationship in the future. If, on the other hand, you have already concluded that the seller is not the kind of person you want to deal with in the future, the best thing to do is end the relationship now, even if that means taking a short term loss. Fighting with bad business people just wastes your time and money. It is better to get them out of your life ASAP. If you want to fight with them over the shipping costs, etc., that's fine, but understand that it could wind up costing more in the long run to do that.

I just have a thing about bad service and businesses that "go on a lot of first dates," if you know what I mean. Part of me wants to force them to be good business people, despite themselves, but the more rational part of my brain tells me that they probably are not going to straighten up just because I complain, so I should just take my business elsewhere and save my energy.

Maybe sending a link of this topic to the retailer might make them realize that the guitar building community share their experiences, and that good service and product are conducive to making profits. That business model certainly works for many of the forum sponsors.

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

Questions like "From Connecticut?" and answers like "Quebec" hurt all the tonewood sellers in those regions by making people want to avoid buying from those places, because not knowing the specific sellers you might accidentally buy from them. I understand the reluctance to name names, but for the lack of it all the dealers in those areas will suffer a little bit from it. Trying to resolve the problem before taking it to a public forum is always the best course. Failing that, helping others avoid a similar fate is not a bad thing.

Fair enough, but the original thrust was to get opinions of the top grading in the first place.

It was the opinion of the material that had people wondering about where it came from. Had they decided it was YOU and not the top people wouldn't have wanted a heads up to origin. People like me still in the information gathering phase of getting started appreciate heads up on this kind of thing. I'll probably be starting pretty low end getting materials from 'safe' sources as indicated by members preferences and mentions in various threads though.

The forum sponsors are always safe bets. Myself, I'm always trying to source stuff from Canada. Border fees and exchange rates etc..