Official Luthiers Forum!

"I was just looking at their catalogue in the privy and they sell a 10 x10 piece of felt for $4.50 which I can buy locally for .50. "

To get the lower price I have to have my wife buy it at her convenience. The gas to get to the store would push me over the $4.50 (now $5.45) price. If I were a repair shop it would probably turn into a $50 piece of felt.

I think the point to be made is that SM is not Sprall Mart, so you won't find EVERYTHING you need there at the price YOU want (actually can't do that at Sprall Mt either because they sell some stuff cheap and other stuff not so cheap) so I've been told. It is not one stop-shopping. "Aww...you mean I might have to track some other sources?" What the he!! is your computer and Duck Duck Go for?
Face it, they are a specialized outlet. Be glad you have them as an outlet cause if you didn't have several of these, you would be up the creek so to speak.
It's simple...if you can find a 2 cent piece of felt for 50 cents instead of $4.50...

So shop elsewhere. What's the issue?

I love Stew-Mac. I've really appreciated a lot of the short cuts they have provided in learning the trade early on. And I have started using Sloane tuners now, so I'm stuck with them :^)

Something they have is too expensive compared to elsewhere? Go elsewhere. Is the time spent searching for a cheaper price worth the time you spent doing it? Great!

They are what they are. I'm glad they are there.

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

Stew Mac and LMI are the Snap On and Mac Tools of the luthiery world! They make great products, yes they are expensive, but they stand by their products and offer real customer service.

I'm a hobbyist and I can't justify some of their stuff right now, but I hope I build enough guitars that I can justify it as I progress.

I don't think many in the luthier world are joining the 1% and any that are probably worked their butts off to get there.

I've had great service from Stew Mac, LMI and the OLF sponsors that I've done business with.

Here's a couple of examples of the excellent customer service I've received from Stew Mac:
I ordered a red spruce top from Stew Mac and just the way it was packaged, next to a neck blank, both halves got cracked in shipping. I called them, told them about it, the customer service rep said I'll have another in the mail for you this afternoon. I asked her if they would like me to send the broken top back or send pictures and the answer was no. I had the new top in hand the next afternoon and I didn't pay a cent for shipping.

I also asked them if I should send a set of 7 year old Grover Sta-tites ($41) to them for warranty or if I should contact Grover directly, they looked up my order from 2006 and sent the tuners out overnight free of charge. They asked that I send the broken ones back when I got them changed out, contact them and they would pay the freight. I changed the tuners out right away but forgot about sending them back until a year later. I didn't bother to contact them about paying the shipping since I let them sit on my bench for a year. As soon as they received them they contacted me and let me know I had a credit for the amount of the shipping.

If you want to talk about bad customer service, I waited at my house two evenings this week waiting for a Home Depot installer to measure my house for a quote for new windows and doors. She called me an hour and a half after our initial appointment and told me she forgot. We set up an appointment for the next evening for which she was a no show and hasn't called since. Home Depot will price match anything though...

Just to share my personal experience with Stew Mac... I had a nut file that seemed to ware out prematurely. I called them and they immediately sent me a free replacement. On another occasion my rabbiting bit had a chip in it. I called them. No questions asked they immediately sent out a replacement. Can't beat the customer service...

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Steve Sollod (pronounced sorta like "Solid")
www.swiftcreekguitars.com

I needed a replacement tuner button for a Waverly tuner. They sent me one FREE, no cost and no postage.

I thought I was clear. Maybe not. It was $120. I get the the reasons for their pricing. And I put up with most of it for many of the reasons stated here. And I like them. I was just surprised on this one.

It's really easy to misread an OPs point in something like this. The pickups alone were $1020 of the order. They are easily available anywhere on the web for $149. Vs $169. That's the $120. (6 of them). No volume discount. We can argue virtues and customer service all day. But on a $1500 order, I would have easily given it to them if they had met me half way. Go ahead and call that callous on my part. But pickups are commodity products. Specialty items, I get it. This? I don't. If that makes me ignorant in your eyes, so be it. Let's move on and agree to disagree.

OK. Now it makes sense. I thought I missed that in the original post but that information isn't there.

Mike thanks for the additional details.

I wanted to share with you our experience with pups. Acoustic pick-ups are one of the "commodity" items that these days have had pricing taken to the bone by some resellers, Internet resellers and as such like strings these things often sell for very little above cost.

I think that I shared our experience with the LR Baggs Anthem where if we matched street price we would make less than 10% on the things. Something that small Luthiers and some small businesses often neglect to do is factor in an overhead rate. Our's is pretty low for where we are and around 10%.... 10% on a $300 sale is $30 and we made less than $30 AND paid shipping too.

What resulted is that we lost a few bucks matching street price or going a bit less.

I have no idea what stock levels that Stew-Mac maintains but it would not surprise me either if they did not have 6 pups that you wanted and as such would have the additional expense of special ordering to fill your order.

These days with JIT, Lean, etc suppliers are not keeping inventory levels comparable to say 10 years ago because it ties up their funds AND the very nature of JIT is prenegotiated purchase orders with releases against them where many resellers depend on their wholesaler to maintain the risk of larger stock levels, expense too.

It also could have been that your order exceeded the stock levels of Stew-Mac but again I can't know.

For the record I'm not judging you and won't do that to you or anyone else. If $120 was an uncomfortable number for you as Jim K. said go elsewhere and that's your right and a lot of us might have done the same thing.

I'm in this thread to provide a different point of view, a positive point of view about Stew-Mac.... that's my concern, interest, motivation, etc. This was on my mind.

From the comments it's pretty clear that lots of folks here have directly benefited from Stew-Mac and that's good to hear. Even the best suppliers run into things that they may not do as well as others. Pups from Stew-Mac may be one of them if price only is the driving force behind where one purchases. OTOH lots of my clients are gigging musicians and paying a bit more to be in a position where my supplier will jump through hoops to support my clients might be a good thing to do too.

Anyway none of this was directed at you and sorry if it appeared that way. $120 is a number that lots of folks might have gone elsewhere too. I just wanted something positive about our friends at Stew-Mac too because they have clearly earned it and continue to do so every day.

Regarding the felt I have Some Stew-Mac felt here and it was not the same felt that I could buy locally because I searched locally for it before getting it from Stew-Mac. The SM stuff is MUCH thicker and denser and better suited for clamp faces, covering large surfaces that cannot scratch an instrument, etc.

Years ago 60 Minutes did a thing on the notion that some defense contractors charge huge overages on simple things that the DoD buys and needed. They examined the $800 ash tray for C-130 transport planes, Specter Gunships too and the $500 wrench that McDonald Douglas charged for the wrench to be used on F-16 ejection seat explosive bolts.

60 Minutes went to other manufacturers, showed them the spec for the item and requested quotations. General Motors came back IIRC over the $800 ashtray for C-130's with a higher quote than the $800.... Why? Because the ashtrays have very low production numbers AND were special in that they snuffed out any combustable when the lid was properly closed and did so rapidly... They also had to deal with excessive vibration that the C-130's are known to produce.

The wrench was so specialized that it could not damage the explosive bolts of the ejection seats or it could result in the death of our pilots if the ejection seat malfunctioned. They found examples where the bolts had been damaged and needed to be replaced because someone tried to use a conventional, off the shelf wrench on them.... The wrench second quotation came in higher than the $500 too again because it is specialized and different than a conventional, off the shelf wrench.

As much as with my personal politics I was sure that the the DoD was over spending our money..... I was wrong.... R, O, N, G.....

Anyway the point here is that the SM felt may be different from craft store felt and in my experience it most certainly was.

Disclaimer: I in no way am affiliated with Stew-Mac or receive any discount, wholesale pricing, etc. It's simply a matter of having experienced superb customer service over the years and as such my obligation.... to let this be known. I'm quick to complain when I receive poor service but also as such feel a very real obligation to also acknowledge excellent service and that's what I am doing here.

My dad used to say that time spent whining about pennies is lost for earning dollars. Buy what is less expensive elsewhere, and what is not available elsewhere and indispensable from that vendor.

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A constellation only takes shape when one maps the whole.
- Beth Brower

Just a side bar ----- their new Max shipping program is a great deal, essentially it allows us to use Stew Mac inventory as our own for about $40 a year.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

." The wrench second quotation came in higher than the $500 too again because it is specialized and different than a conventional, off the shelf wrench."
Some screwdrivers I've used cost almost that much. Why would anyone pay that much for a screwdriver! Because you need the accuracy it gives you. It might be a good lutherie tool.
http://www.grainger.com/category/torque ... alog/N-98p

Considering the "quality control" many manufacturers have today I would also think about the vendor's return policy and how well they stand by the product. If you don't use the item for 6 months, and later find it is defective, will they still stand behind it?

When it comes to stuff like tape, felt, plastic, etc., Stew Mac goes and hunts down the precise types of materials that we need as guitar makers. That is worth the extra cost, much of the time. Now, if I am going to buy enough of something to justify trying to source it elsewhere at a lower price, it makes sense to do that. Nobody should be offended by the higher price Stew Mac charges for their work in finding it, buying it, and repackaging it for us.

Strings, pickups, picks, etc.? Vote with your conscience and your feet. If you want to pay more in order to support a business you like, do that. If you need to shop purely on price in order to make ends meet, do that. No judgment by me either way. We all need to do what we need to do.

Related musing:

Sit back sometime and think about how important FedEx and UPS have become, compared to 30 years ago, in terms of retail sales. The transport of raw materials and finished goods has always been a huge factor for any type of commerce (obviously), but now it is a much bigger part of retail, thanks to the Internet.

Drilling down to Stew Mac, they have always been a "mail order" business, but they really have done a great job of making the Internet work in their favor. They have secured the right contracts for shipping, and put together the right internal processes, in order to make my online buying experience as reliable as the rising sun. I can't say that for everyone in the guitar building supply business. No offense to everybody else, because my experiences with everybody else are normally fine, but buying online from Stew Mac is faster and more reliable than everybody else. It just is. Maybe I luck out from proximity (Athens, OH is just a few hours away).

I am completely in the same boat as Burton on this one. Indeed, StewMac DOES have "Professional Pricing" on their Waverly tuners. Those folks buy at lower prices than the highest quantity pricing, which always makes me feel like I am paying for their discount as well as not being able to make money on the sale of Waverly tuners on a guitar that I build. Even a semi-professional guitar builder should be able to make money on what they sell, but has to be able to buy below the price of what any person off the street can buy it for themselves.

I know several builders who get this pricing, and StewMac provides a price sheet for them.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Sometimes high military priced military items are things hidden under a different name for security reasons.

Also on the internet sales. Some people specialize in a few parts to get the price break and do it as 'extra income'. The government was after fleabay records because many of these folks aren't paying taxes. They may also may be getting orders small enough to get away skirting customs and import duties. Ever note the customs disclaimers in some ads?

I guess I must have stirred up a , but you are telling me you want to make a few bucks on the price of the tuners? If I want to buy a Martin, am I mad that I have to pay for their giving away guitars to popular songsters? If I buy a Ford am I mad that the race cars they run cost me? Am I mad that my taxes pay for Sprall Mart's stores? Yes on that one. Don't do Fords or Martins. Don't do Sprall Mart either, but they do take my taxes.

If a customer wanted Waverlys, I charged them what I paid plus shipping or they could buy them and send them to me. The customer pays for all materials. So, if I paid $480 for Waverly mandolin tuners instead of $500., you figure you are paying the $20 or more like $.001?

Buy a grand worth of merch and you get it too. Frankly, I'd be more worried about corps taking tax $$$ to build stores.

"I know several builders who get this pricing, and StewMac provides a price sheet for them."
(separate quotes)
"which always makes me feel like I am paying for their discount"

Another way to look at it is that those who buy in large quantities allow for greater production of the item , which allows it to be produced in the first place and at a lower cost; helping both wholesale and retail pricing.
If StewMac provides lower prices on Waverlys to select professional builders, they may look at it as a form of advertising expense. Much as guitarmakers giving free guitars to well known players.

"Even a semi-professional guitar builder should be able to make money on what they sell, but has to be able to buy below the price of what any person off the street can buy it for themselves."

Why? You are not making the tuner. If you want to make money on the tuners, buy 6 sets and charge the single set price to the buyer. Or bury the additional money you want for them in the overall cost of the instrument. If you can't meet the requirements for wholesale pricing why expect it?
I'm not meaning to offend or defend anyone, but as they say, it is what it is.

The luthier I study with noted that businesses value the contribution to the bottom line made by large volume and repeat customers, and try to keep them happy and coming back with attractive pricing and favorable payment terms. He also suggested that what makes Stewart MacDonald atypical is that all of their customers receive the same level of service, whether the account is worth a few hundred a year or tens of thousands a month. So while some may view small buyers as subsidizing low prices for larger buyers, the opposite seems to be the case for customer service.

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A constellation only takes shape when one maps the whole.
- Beth Brower

StewMac's customer service is unparalleled. Period.

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https://soundcloud.com/jeffreylsuits/he ... -runnin-13

first, I've found this thread quite interesting in many aspects...

SM obviously has some seriously loyal customers...

volume discounts: here's a memory of my 'childhood'...used to tie fishing flies for 3 different stores in California...I worked for all of them at one point or another...one of the stores was The Fly Hutch in Cupertino...I was at one point able to peruse the price sheets for fly rod blanks from a big manufacturer of them (IIRC correctly they made blanks for many retailers of various names from their custom mandrels)...the quantity discounts for volume bought over a year's period were astounding...the following is just from vague memory and I make no statements of specific accuracy, but stand by my memories of the concept...for 1-15 standard wholesale price...for 15-30 10% markdown...30-50 25% markdown...50-100 40% markdown...above that 50% markdown...the spreadsheet may have been larger than that IIRC...

the point of that was to point out that quantity discounts do exist and can be a very valuable source of income...I distinctly remember that Neil Bohannon (the owner and my boss) was adamant about getting the highest possible discount possible which meant sales of the product (either as kits to be sold for a person to make their own rods, or for us to make and sell as a finished product)...and as a 'small time' retailer Neil was in no way interested in passing the savings on to the customer, and there's nothing wrong with that per se...IIRC there were a few sales and such to boost the quantities ordered to the next level of discount...

the first priority of any business is to STAY IN BUSINESS...end of discussion...

without being able to look at SM's books and make a judgement I have no way of determining just how they run their business, but if quantity discounts to large buyers on certain products allows them to stay afloat, then so be it...

as has already been stated they serve a purpose to luthiers (statistically speaking a very small part of the world) and this is in of itself valuable...I don't know how things stand now (other than to realize fly fishing is MUCH more popular today than it was when I was a kid) but 40 years ago (I started tying flies for $ when I was 12 and I'm 52 now) fly fishing was a 'fad'...suppliers for the specialized equipment and supplies for tying flies were just like SM is now...if you want such things and want them right then you pay because of simple quantities of scale...

yeah, I've perused SM's catalog and really don't like their pricing on a lot of things...and it's my choice to either find an alternative, make it myself, or bite the bullet and pay the price...that's just life...

final thought: yeah, I didn't have much issue with Neil's way of pushing fly rod blanks to get a higher discount because of quantities of scale...I DID have a major issue with his greed when he tried to push the idea of I go off the clock when I was tying flies while watching the store while he was gone...pffffftttt...now that was over the top penny pinching in my eyes...

I have probably done 30 orders with SM over the past couple of years. Every single time they beat every competitor (including the giants like amazon) on shipping price and somehow had the product on my door step, in Australia, in under three days. In real terms for me this makes them cheaper in terms of actual and opportunity cost than any competitor. In my non-guitarmaking life I work in the technical side of online retail and credit card processing. I've seen how hundreds of online businesses work from the inside.

I have never seen another business nail speed, efficiency in shipping and responsive customer service like SM does. To me, they are the yardstick regardless of industry, and I use them as a case study when educating new clients on how things should be done.


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I too have learned a lot from this thread. My biggest point was I had a substantial order. I order a lot from SM. And I will continue to do so. Just like I buy stuff from some of you. It's just all has to make economic sense for me in the end.

I've been buying from SM since 1977 or thereabouts. I've always grumbled about some of their pricing, but at the same time have marvelled at the quality of their goods and their customer service. That costs money, and if I want them to stay in business so I can continue to enjoy their business ethics, I'm glad to pay the price. My fear is that they become so successful they get bought up by some investment company and get stripped of all that's good, and does price matching.

Pat

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formerly known around here as burbank
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com