Official Luthiers Forum!

For me a complete (sprayed) oil varnish finish takes ~4 hours actual working time. The curing time is much longer but I have areas where guitars can hang while curing without getting in my way. The total calender time is usually 2 weeks, but can take longer. Nitrocellouse lacquer, catalyzed urethane, or catalyzed polyester takes me an hour less or so. Nitro has to cure a LONG time to get what I consider a good finish. The calender time is usually ~6 weeks with nitro. Catalyzed urethane is usually around 2 to 3 weeks. It hardens quickly, but shrinks for a while so you have to wait before buffing. Calender time for a polyester finish can be a week or even less since it cures quickly, and doesn't shrink much at all.

The catch is, 2 oil varnish guitars, finished at the same time would take pretty much twice as much time as finishing one. Catalyzed finishes, and even Nitro to some extent don't require as much attention between coats so finishing 10 guitars at once may not even take twice as long as finishing 1.
I'm not claiming to be a finish expert, but I'm not some self proclaimed know it all who's just posting stuff I've read somewhere. (I'm not saying anyone in this thread is just posting stuff they've read, but it happens online all the time) I've used all of the finishes I've mentioned. I'll post some pictures later if anyone wants to see them, but this isn't really a picture thread. I done a little French Polishing years ago, but pretty much all I remember is it made my arm tired. LOL

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I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
http://www.brackettinstruments.com/

Woody - I, for one, would love to see some photos!

You're welcome, glad it worked out.
Ace Hardware interior varnish, Behlen's water white restoration varnish and Pratt&Lambert #38 are pale varnishes. Unless your finish is .010" thick, they all will be pretty light in colour. Epifanes is a tad more amber than those, and the darkest amber is Behlen's Rockhard, by a long stretch.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

C'mon Woody!
I've been sick for a week now,
it's rainin' out,
all I can do is play my geetars,
and poke around the forums.

Thanks for that, Laurent!

Sorry, long time before I got back to this. My main concern is over what picks could do to the finish. I usually play fingerstyle on steel-string guitars, and my own SS I built for myself is French Polished.

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

While I have never finished a guitar with it, I don't see why a brush grade lacquer wouldn't work. I have fished more than a few pieces of furniture over the years with Watco's brushing lacquer. It can be sanded and buffed and in fact even continues to self level over the course of 2-3 weeks as it completely cures. There is a technique to applying it, and I recommend a quality badger brush for best results. This may be a good alternative for those of you who would like to use lacquer but can not spray it for whatever reason. While the air does not hang heavy with standoff, fumes are still present and a respirator should be worn. Just a thought.
Brian

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Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

Although I can't comment on the specific product you mentioned, furniture lacquer is usually too hard for musical instrument use. Instrument lacquer has stuff added to it to make it more flexible, and less prone to checking. It's my belief that harder finishes are also bad for tone. You can brush instrument lacquer (like Mohawk, Behlens, Seagrave ect) by adding a little retarder. The retarder is needed so it doesn't dry before the brush marks flow out.

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I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
http://www.brackettinstruments.com/

Be careful what you ask for............, and Laurent, I love looking at your guitars, how 'bout some pics of them.


This is a nitro finish, on a manufacturered guitar I re finished last year. (Mohawk)



This is a (catalyzed) Polyester finish. (Mcfaddens)



This is a catalyzed Urethane finish. (ML Campbell)



This is Epifanes Oil Varnish


This is Sherwin Williams Oil Varnish. It's my current varnish choice. It cures a little quicker than Epifanes. You can recoat in ~4 hours, instead of waiting overnight or longer.

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I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
http://www.brackettinstruments.com/

Thank you Woody.
They all look good!
Ever think of specializing in git finishing?

That's what I'm talking about! Those are some beautiful guitars and beautiful finishes! Thanks for sharing the pics Woody, and for the notes about what the finish is in each one. It's very helpful to me to see examples of each finish!

I often use French polish on the top, and 'Rockhard' varnish on the B&S and neck, when I'm building a classical 'on spec'. The added toughness of the varnish makes it a little less nerve-wracking to show the instrument around, and the classical players like French polish on the top.

Thank's for the list of lighter varnishes, Laurent. I'll have to try some of them. I like the amber color of the 'Rockhard' in general, but there are times when a lighter finish is nice.

I have run into oil varnishes in the past that did not hold up well under perspiration. They might be fine for furniture use, but turn gummy on guitar necks. I'm assuming the light varnishes mentioned hold up well in that respect?

You're welcome Alan. Yes, those varnishes hold up as well as Rockhard. Providing you wait long enough between coats. Rockhard is pretty good in the fact that one can spray 2 coats/day if well enough organised, and hardens properly.
The only time I have run into the varnish remaining a bit tacky is when I had not waited enough between the coats. The varnish eventually hardened normally after 6 months or so.
The Behlen restoration varnish, Ace and Epifanes definitely require more curing time than Rockhard, I like to wait 48h between coats for those. My favourite is Epifanes clear varnish + accelerator, more expensive, but worth it.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

Double post.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

Well it seems like they all have their ups and downs, but I agree with several posters that a guy needs to pick one and learn to live with it. As a mandolin builder I need a thin finish and I am enjoying the creative freedom of the French Polish. I find it fascinating and somewhat relaxing, but my arm is numb...........

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Its amazing what you find when you clean behind the bandsaw............

Keith Edward Coleman
Albuquerque, NM
http://www.wckc.us

Thanks for the heads up on the Sherwin Williams varnish. I have been using Behlens Rock Hard - It works great, but it is *Really* orange....

Brush wise - so far, the best foam brushes I have used are from the local Woodcraft store.... The ones from WalMart seem to be too soft and produce a *LOT* of runs.... The ones from Lowes and Home Depot seem to be somewhere in between.

Regarding laying down a thin, flatter coat of varnish - I have had good luck with 1 piece of paper towel wrapped around the business end of the brush.... Seems stiffer and won't hold as much varnish, but it also doesn't let you put down a coat that is thick enough to run everywhere.

Thanks

Just wondering, could the better option then be French Polish with a well placed pickguard on a steel string? How many people do this? Reading the thread, this seems like something I want to do on my next guitar (which is a steel string).

Chris, you could certainly add a pick guard to a french polished guitar. There's also a temporary pick guard that can be used made by Kling-on. LMI sells them.

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Ken Franklin
clumsy yet persistent
https://www.kenfranklinukulele.com

Is there a particular name for the Sherwin Williams? I was in there today looking for nitro, and they came out with a 2 part gloss varnish. I just know if I go in without a name they will come at me with something I don't have the answer for...

Yup, I did a quick search, and the only thing they call varnish is water white conversion varnish. What we talkin' about?

Further checking, there are various fast dry products, but none are varnishes.

I use Sherwin Williams Fast Dry Oil Varnish. A gallon is $50ish. If you sign up for a commercial account you'll get a discount.
http://www.sherwin-williams.com/do_it_yourself/products/wood_classics_fastdry_varnish/


My local store doesn't stock it, but they'll get it from another store in a day or 2. One of the kids that works there is a guitar player. He brings it to my shop so we can talk guitars.
I suppose it's available in Canada. The product number isn't listed online. I'll get it off of a can later and PM it to you.

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I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
http://www.brackettinstruments.com/

Here's a tip I got from Brian Burns, use a fair amount of acetone with DA as solvent for your shellac. There's a limit to how much acetone can be added without damaging the shellac, but it makes it cure much fasterThere you go Woody, fresh from the booth (yesterday).

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

I decided to experiment with a new finish. I can't say it's my favorite but it has a lot of promise. I only used it on a ukulele so I don't know much about the acoustic properties and the top wood is not what I usually use. Anyway the finish is medium viscosity CA from the hobby store. I spread it on with a latex glove in sections working new glue into still wet sections. I had an organic vapor mask and googles. They are a must because of the fumes. Between coats I sands some with 320 gold paper. After five coats I sanded with 320 dry and then 400, 600, and 1500 wet. Then I buffed with Menzerna and finished it off with Meguiar's Swirl Remover. It took more effort than usual to level and buff but I like the quality of the finish. It seems quite thin and durable. If you want a flat finish you can omit the buffing and it looks pretty good.

This might be a durable option for those who don't have much equipment or a place to spray. They could always use Micromesh for the polishing. It also has the advantage of a great bond between the pore fill and the finish since the material is the same for both. When attaching the bridge and neck extension I was surprised how thin the finish was. It is also easily repairable.

I did seal the top with one coat of shellac before using the CA. The whole ukulele use only one 2 ounce bottle.

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Ken Franklin
clumsy yet persistent
https://www.kenfranklinukulele.com

Ken brought that ukulele to the Nor Cal luthiers meeting this last weekend.
I saw, held, and played that ukulele and the finish was amazing. But then again, Ken Franklin can make anything look great !

L.

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Cut to size.....Beat to fit.....Paint to match.

Hey Mikey,

I also use KTM - 9, mostly because of the lack of explosion risk, but I'm told that it's still quite toxic, especially while airborne; very good ventilation/appropriate air mask is critical while spraying.

(And I aslo like the combo - Zpoxy and KTM 9 - use gloves and good ventilation for the Zpoxy - the hardener is also nasty stuff.)

Ken,

I have a rather ignorant question. Was the seal coat of shallac before or after the pore fill with CA? I'm very clueless when it comes to finishing, so forgive me.

Thanks!

Josh

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Finally escaped The Peoples' Republik of Massachusetts; I can smell the freedom in the air!