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OR the action is sufficiently high to clear the second fret with a lowered first fret, which has been established and agreed to (I think?) as not optimal by more than one (or all, actually) respondents.

I think our friend actually understands that, but is wanting it to be correct in his situation.

Well, correct, incorrect, it doesn't matter at this point as he will likely have a problem if lowered. At THAT point, it will definitely be a problem, even if not considered one now, unless of course the fret has simply been made level with the second fret.

If that's the case, it really isn't a problem now, even, but it is being described as measurably lower.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

Exactly. The fret that was level with the other frets with the guitar unstrung becomes a high fret under tension. It happens all the time.
That is why we use short straightedges......with the guitar under tension. Bumping and rocking, bumping and rocking.

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John

I know what I was saying isn't the best way to do a set-up. That wasn't the point. The point was to illicit a discussion and to prove a point to a luthier I know that this forum has too many a-holes on it. The reason I filed the fret like that is that it had a nic in it that was too deep to file out, and I didn't notice it until the fret was already in. I knew I was going to have to replace that fret anyway. But, I finished setting it up anyway because I was eager to hear it, and it was already leveled and dressed. I cut the nut slot a little too deep. The buzz was barely there, and only when I plucked the string really hard. So I decided to file it down until the buzz and the nic were gone. It worked, and although I still plan to fix the fret it got me thinking, I wonder if this could be a useful way to do things in certain situations? I decided it might be in certain situations. For instance if you're on tour as a tech or artist and need a quick fix before a show or the only thing you have to fix it is a file. And maybe it's a better set-up for folk musicians that only use a capo on 2, or people who pretty much play on the first 5 frets or so. I was talking to another luthier I know who reads this forum, but doesn't post because he agrees with me that there are too many people on here that get negative, and I said , I wonder what will happen if I post a thread on this?" He said, "a few people will try to be helpful, and a few more will try to make you look stupid." Pretty much what happened. This was basically a continuation of a discussion on the frustration of how people in the U.S. are getting scary and weird about those who want to discuss certain things, and there seems to be a societal shift in attitude going on where people feel the need to quell discussion if they don't agree, rather than having a civil debate. This happened to me on a MMA forum where I was trying to have a civil discussion about the NDAA. I ended up getting IP banned from that forum.

So, I do appriciate and want to thank the people who've sincerely tried to help me with info on this forum, but I've been put in a bad mood too many times by others, and this will be my last post. BTW, there are luthiers with just as much experience and expertise as anyone on this forum that see the "pro's" writing plenty of things that are wrong and just plain nonsense, and nobody calls them out. So some of you should go back and read your own posts and think a little before you decide to belittle a "newby".

So you come on here to bait us, and be obtuse, and then call US the a-holes.
Good riddance to you.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

I agree with Chris. If you don't like how you're are treated on a forum rather then taunt or do the "troll" thing just leave it. I may be new to lutherie, but I'm not new to forums nor do I live my life for the praise of strangers. The thing is that these are PEOPLE on the forums, not robots. Everyone has an opinion that is unique to them. This is my opinion and this is how I choose to share it. If you can't be considerate enough to use your real name then whay would we even care about yor opinion?

heh heh.

The jig is up fellas. String a ling has stumbled upon one of the most closely held secrets of lutherie. Lets stop trying to convince him otherwise and just give him his pass into the secret society and an invitation to the next meeting at Bohemian Grove. Kudos to you string-a-ling! It usually takes people years to figure out what the pros are doing to get the best action possible. Why don't we just admit that all this talk about angles and geometry, and nuts is just a cunning ruse to confuse the issue. I mean, John Hall even made a mistake himself when he said he puts a .0205" tang into a .023" fret slot. That fret would simply fall out!!
Lets welcome the newest member to our secret society. Your black robes and a recording of the secret knock will be coming forthwith. Welcome good sir!!

I'm obviously joking. You can't get in that easily! NO SECRET KNOCK FOR YOU!!! Plus, they wont let me in either, so we can chill together in the parking lot outside of their next meeting.

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http://www.CostaGuitars.com
PMoMC

Well, some people come across as a-holes on forums when they aren't really in real life. You can't see if someone's laughing, smiling or shaking their head when they respond. Emoticons helps a LITTLE.

But frankly, all you did really was make yourself look insecure, inexperienced, unteachable, argumentative, and childish. I was beginning to think to myself, "This guy must be pretty young, probably sixteen or so."

And reading through the posts, it looked like most people were trying to be helpful, until you started baiting them on purpose, then they understandably got tired of you, so you didn't really make your point, other than maybe you shouldn't participate in forums, just read them.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

I doubt it. This was too much fun for you.

On another note, most of the luthiers that I know don't stop their truss rods at the first fret when they are accessed through the soundhole. It's close to the nut.

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Ken Franklin
clumsy yet persistent
https://www.kenfranklinukulele.com

this thread is proof that some people prove my Grandfathers statement thant "God made more Horses asses than horses".
Actually a .0205 tang in a .023 slot is perfect , you forgot the extra thickness for the barb Tony. too tight and you back bow the neck too hard. With adjustable rods that works well , Martin does it that way and in fact went to .0195 since the 2 way rod.
Compression fretting is an other story

I modified this post as grammar implied the wrong sentiment
Apologies to anyone I offended .

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

John,
My whole post was a joke. But thanks for calling me an ass. That was real sweet of you.

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http://www.CostaGuitars.com
PMoMC

No I wasn't calling you an ass tony LOL that was for the way the post ended up. Accept my apology on that.
PEOPLE I DIDN"T MEAN TONY.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

No worries John. I'm just concerned now that Todd is fixated on my ASSets!

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http://www.CostaGuitars.com
PMoMC

Thanks Tony.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Huh? Todd?


Sent from my walkie talkie using Tapatalk

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"After forty-nine years of violin building, I have decided that the search for a varnish is similar to the fox hunt. The fun is in the hunt."
Jack Batts Maker and Repairer of Fine Violins

it must be the lederhosen

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

The lederhosen! Yes. It gets them every time!

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http://www.CostaGuitars.com
PMoMC

the patience of the veterans of this forum simply astounds me...

the plus to that being that a lot of good information got disseminated to those that might actually appreciate it...the negative being the troll got his rocks off for too long "string-a-ling(ing)" everybody along...

I have to say that the positive far outweighs the negative...

If you make one fret lower than the other, especially in the first few frets you are going to have horrible buzzing problem. The last few frets may be slightly lower (with a fallaway) to make the guitar more playable. Think about this, when one fret is lower than the next the string has nowhere to go except buzz unless you raise the action REALLY high.

As far as neck relief you want just enough to make the guitar playable (ie. not buzz). Too much neck relief WILL cause intonation problems from 1st to 12th fret, ie. when you play a 5th position bar chord it will sound off. I have a customer who has constant problem with this (for whatever reason his neck relief gets too much, not sure why, then he complains about intonation problem. I adjust the relief to its proper level and the problem goes away) No you should not change fret height to achieve a certain neck relief. I am sure it's possible but what's the point unless the neck has no truss rod?

Fret crown makes a difference too... improperly crowned frets (or uncrowned frets) = buzz-o-matic.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com