Official Luthiers Forum!

It might take a while to develop a taste for the way some guitars sound. Not all guitars are supposed to fill a room with jangilly resonances floating on top of a full bass woofer. Some great instruments may sound thin and quirky in a lone setting yet in a mix will fit in well.

_________________
Ken

So when I have not even managed to sell an instrument does that mean I did something wrong? People said my instrument sounded great but they wouldn't put the money down for it either.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

The easiest way to sell is to get that big reputation (chicken egg I know). At one time I did repairs in a retail outlet that sold factory, new makers and the occasional big name. I've seen and heard some very ordinary sounding Classical Guitars ( by big name makers with a big price tag) fly off the wall. Never underestimate the power of the name on the label.

Especially in Asia where name means more than quality. People here only wear name brand things.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

I do charge quite a bit less for non-pore filled, fairly plain guitars. ~$4.5k vs ~$7k plus for the flasher, custom stuff. Not 50%, but heading that way. There's no real difference in the sound; all the acoustical engineering is the same. I sell a lot more of the flash ones than the plain ones. Tells you something about about buyer values...

It's interesting when you look into the reasons for the thick finish. Polyester can be electrostatically sprayed to a finished film thickness of 0.6mm in one hit. And a guitar gets two or three hits. Scary. Stroke sanding gets rid of ~50% of it and that's the risk area rather than buffing. The main reason for the thick film is that it will render invisible just about any production ding in the woodwork and there is a potential to collect lots at the speed they get chucked around a busy plant. It's really all about speed and convenience in production. Before they hit the spray shop, these guitars are pretty reasonable, sound good to the tap, neat woodwork etc. (plus a few dings!) The finish kills them. Dead. Check out the density and damping characteristics of polyester.

_________________
Trevor Gore, Luthier. Australian hand made acoustic guitars, classical guitars; custom guitar design and build; guitar design instruction.

http://www.goreguitars.com.au

Todd Stock wrote:

"My guess is rather than doing anything wrong, you just did not get enough things right. I have sold two custom guitars to a local repair/pro player guy...he saw my first, 3rd, 4th, 8th, and 9th before he saw and heard what he needed to commit to a commission...in other words, there was not enough 'right' with numbers 1-8 to cause him to commit. Keep building and recognize that it's not enough to build instruments that compare well to factory stuff - you have to be better than the other small and mid-size shop and custom options as well, or set the price so low that you are competing with factory stuff. Sucks, but that's the way it is. Even if you manage to sell all of your early production, it's useful to have a very critical player handy to let you know how your stuff stacks up against your real competition. "

That right there is something some of us need to hear.

I went in to the local Martin dealer, a small shop but they have been in business quite some time and picked up one of their new models and it was very nice. It was probably one that everything went right but it made me want to quit building.

I need to get more things right for the real players to really think about buying. The few I have sold have gone to friends and family.

Thanks Todd.

_________________
Wisdom is justified by her children

A couple of comments...

First, what sounds 'good' is purely subjective. Enough people think these guitars sound 'good' to keep the factories in business.

Second, I think that any acoustic instrument needs exercise for the voice to open up. The sound matures to something typically 'better' once the instrument is played regularly for a while.

And new strings don't hurt....

Regards,
DT

Wierd things happen in the brain when you hit a good Acoustic specialist and play loads of instruments.... I go all wierd, the brain starts to try and compute whether the credit card + trade in can be done... twisted logic takes hold as you desperately try and figure out what you can afford... I say that as someone who is an average player, but appreciates tone and build.

I have played some wonderful factory made instruments, vintage and new. From Martin, Sant Cruz, Collings... (sorry never played a decent new Gibson and Taylor...well just not for me ... all MHO of course) What we tend to forget is that we like what suits our style of play - I play open tunings, DADGAD and others and tend to go for the more 'Lowden', smaller but deeper bodied guitars... yet I have a Martin dread (a 97 HD28V) which was so good when i first strumed, I traded an equally great SCGC OM pre war... which I miss... you see as a player, I want one of everything, but cant afford that, so end up like many trading in, and getting something new... now and again... and its one of the reasons why so many still go brand name...resale value... allows us to constrantly change despite better, greater, custom luthier instruments being available.

But the reality is that whilst I have what in MHO is a great Martin.... there is one instrument that I tried but did not buy that I will always regret... simply because it is the best guitar 'I' have ever played (NB. note I say 'I' as I have heard better players make complete dogs sing sweetly - where style and technique is either suited perfectly or they are simply able to pull out the best... played a $3500 1954 Martin 0015 recently - when I played it sounded like a child's guitar - then heard it in hands of a really good blues picker and it was sooooo sweet)... anyway back to the guitar I would have sold the wife an children for had that still been legal

Cocobolo, German Spruce hand crafted by Gerald Shepperd.... this thing just sang, the most responsive, dynamic instrument I have ever tried, but try as I could I could not work out how to make up £6500 ($9000)... This was not lust, this was love! If I can ever build an instrument that sounds a 1/4 as good, I will be happy....

Factories, can build a good guitar, just less consistently... but the quality from a good single luthier is so way above - just many still have issues and worries about resale... my mission in life is to get more guitarists buing custom hand made!

At one point years ago we had a student who was between jobs in the tech field, and worked in the shop for a while doing setups and such. At one point a Martin came in for some adjustment, and he played it for a while (he's a good player) and said: "Not too bad". Then he laughed and said: "Six months ago that would have been the best guitar I'd ever heard!"

It's hard to sell sound in part because it's so subjective. The manufacturers rely on that: every guitar they make is likely to be somebody's 'Holy Grail', if only they can find that person. They must, of course, over build them a bit: they can't take the time to test the wood, so they have to assume that the weakest bracing will end up on the weakest top. Once in a while that happens, and you end up with something very nice. Usually they're just taking advantage of the fact that the designs are so good that, when they're carefully built, the difference between the 'best' and the 'worst' is pretty small in an objective sense, and, as I say, somebody will like them all.

We're out here fighting for that last 5% or so, and in that range things get touchy. Also, we often have to start with a sound and wrap a box around it, which is tricky. It's quite possible to make a guitar that everybody loves, except for the guy who ordered it, and that's a failure. You'll sell it eventually, of course (unless it has the guy's name on the fretboard in LEDs), but it's hell on the cash flow for a little while.

Finish is indeed the enemy. It's possible, of course, to get a very nice finish that's also thin enough to be not too detrimental, but it's a lot of work. I sometimes wonder if the customers know how long it takes, and how much they're paying for it.

Frank Ford once told me that it's actually very hard for a store like his to sell handmade guitars, even when they are manifestly superior in many respects to the factory stuff. A lot of it has to do with the name: people grew up seeing Martins and Gibsons, and to them those are the definition of 'quality'. A guitar made by somebody they never heard of starts out with two strikes against it. He also said that the easiest guitar for him to sell is a Collings; an 'improved' Martin clone.The hardest thing to sell would be something that was almost like a Martin: the customer would assume that the maker was trying to copy the big name, and didn't have the ability, even if the changes were merely stylistic, or actually well thought out improvements. I'll note that I'm talking here about steel string guitars: classical buyers do tend to look more closely as hand mades, since no touring professional plays a factory built classical. At any rate, if a hand made guitar hangs on a shop wall for a while, it may not reflect badly on the instrument so much as on the prejudices of the buyers. BTW, Farnk said that if ou want to sell a guitar in a store, don't put a date on the label. If a buyer sees a date that's more than a year or so old, they won't touch it. Do they spoil?

Sometimes I think it would be nice to sell through a store. I know several very good (and busy) makers who make space in their build schedule for instruments to send to stores. It allows them to make something 'different' once in a while, for one thing. If I can just get ahead of other stuff for a while...

Fascinating discussion. Thanks everyone.

And on a side note, I was recently talking to a high end builder, and he was complaining/observing that there was no way he could sell a mahogany guitar. He was a little bummed about it, but apparently, above a certain price point, there needed to be a certain amount of "wood bling". Which meant things like flashy cocobolo, African Blackwood, the most colorful ebonies, and things like quilted sapele.

Kinda sad, to my mind, but I guess the market is the market.

Steve

Yeah, I guess if you're paying the premium price, why settle for plain old mahogany or rosewood, even if it's straight grained and quartersawn with no run out!

Well, a common thread in this thread seems to be that people really want to "see" what they're paying for more than anything.

_________________
Old growth, shmold growth!

I agree and second the thanks



Very interesting. I'm just about to start a series of different sizes as a design study - all in Mahogany - but would feel very lucky to sell anything at this stage in my building adventure. I just bought some mahogany and there was a complaint there as well about the lack of respect for a good hog guitar.

_________________
Thank You and Best To All

..and they probably have a point as the high end should/could be able to absorb the added cost of backs and sides of the premium (looking) woods.



Yeah all too common, but some VERY nice guitars are built from the lowly Mahogany.

_________________
Thank You and Best To All

I guess Mahogany is seen as "cheap" simply because they are used on cheaper guitars.

I think maybe I should try building classicals, it almost seems as though mainstream instruments are always going to be dominated by low cost brands from Asia, or big names like Gibson. I do know for instruments used in classical music, handmade is preferred.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Interesting point made by Alan about the most difficult hand made instruments to sell are the Martin Clones etc... I remmebr reading an article about PatrickJames Eggle when he was building acoustics in the US - he took some round the Gruhns - who stated that although nice,m he would be better off doing something slightly different - his own mark /design as it were...which he did and although now a small 5 person outfit, is more successful.

If you look at the makers who have made in major strides in establishing themselves with a reputation, some have had the good fortune, for their fine instruments to find their way into the hands of well known professionals - the 'marketing' value is obvious, but the instruments tend to be those with a unique design in most cases. The use of more exotic woods in part as come full circle, with the factory makers now also providing this custom service, wooden bindings etc... so the single Luthiers must have been doing something right

To be fair to Martin and the like, they have their 'own' sound and if you want a Martin sound, a Martin is a good place to start - just serach for a good one.

I think by teh time most come round to wanting a custom instrument, its because they want something unique in tonal character that they cant find off the shelf... describing something so subjective etc is never going to be easy, nor necessarily to build, but one thing I have learned is that its often fun to be 'surprised' by tone - not to restrict yourself to what is 'in your head' and appreciate that we ae not always talking about 'better' (although in construction and woods we often are) but about 'different' - and its that unique difference that makes playing Luthier built instruments so much more rewarding for me...even If I cant afford them all!

Good thread. Back around 2003 I took one of my guitars over to Jim Olson's place. He said the finish needed to be better. "How about the sound?" I asked.

I didn't appreciate the wisdom of his response until years later-

"It sounds fine. They all sound good----to someone."

_________________
It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

This thread just keeps getting better - thanks for that Terence - sage wisdom for sure.

_________________
Thank You and Best To All

There are plenty of factory guitars that sound great, and while there is variation it's much less common on the high end models. This comes from spending some time playing guitars coming off final setup at Martin, and the following summer working in a guitar shop that only carried high end instruments. While there are some absolute dogs in the mix, in my experience there's no shortage of good ones. Most of my time in that shop was daily routine maintenance of everything on the sales floor, since I was the only guy around with legitimate building and repair experience. Oiling up the fretboard, polishing frets, and putting on a new set of strings can make a night and day difference. Will a chain store pay someone to take that much care of their products? No.

I also put heavy emphasis on players. There are many people out there with minimal training and musical experience who will drop $10k at the drop of a hat if they think they finally found "the one," only to repeat the process a few months later. A well seasoned player understands that no instrument will ever be perfect and can quickly adapt to tonal quirks so that most of the guitars they pick up will sound dang good. Not to toot my own horn too much, but when I went off to study at a conservatory I already had 15 years of musical experience under my belt and was exposed to music constantly from birth... Seriously, my mother teaches violin and viola from home and my crib was in her studio. After almost every recital I was approached by at least 2 to 3 individuals who wanted to know the name of the luthier I got it from. Telling them it was a $1k Alvarez Yairi resulted in no shortage of confusion, and almost everyone else in my studio had invested at least five times that amount. I planned to commission a proper handmade guitar my sophomore year, but instead had to change my major after nerve injuries.

Another good example with the same guitar happened during auditions. New England Conservatory was on my list, and while questioning my interpretation of a passage Eliot Fisk asked for my guitar to demonstrate his opinion. Guess who the guitar sounded like? Eliot Fisk.

It's easy to complain about tone, but my firm belief is that unless it's a flawed instrument, part of being a musician is understanding how to make an instrument do your bidding. During a playing test for a prototype classical at Martin, I was asked about any complaints regarding wolftones. No matter how you design or build a guitar, it will have some. I simply stated there was nothing out of the ordinary and complimented its playability, although it felt somewhat less open than I would prefer. That was most likely due to use of a spruce top, and overbuilding, while my general preference for classical guitar tops is cedar.

The above advice that "They all sound good to someone." Is perfect, and invaluable wisdom.

Frank Cousins wrote:
"Interesting point made by Alan about the most difficult hand made instruments to sell are the Martin Clones etc..."

ACK!

What I wrote was:
" He also said that the easiest guitar for him to sell is a Collings; an 'improved' Martin clone.The hardest thing to sell would be something that was almost like a Martin..."

The point I was trying to get across was that people want to buy a Martin, or an exact copy with nicer detailing, like a Collings. Exact Martin clones are easy to sell, something that's close implies a lack of ability on the makers' part. If you don't want to copy a Martin _exactly_, do something that's obviously not close.

Yeah I caught that too Alan but I knew what you meant.

_________________
Thank You and Best To All

I believe it to be untrue that you can't build a guitar without wolf tones.

This link was posted this morning on another thread and demonstrates one of the biggest differences between large factory and small shop and Luthier built guitars http://theunofficialmartinguitarforum.yuku.com/topic/1364#.UWwu47Wzd8E Some of the worst bracing jobs I have ever seen, most new builders 1st guitars are braced better than the best of these. Glue squeeze out, bad fits and just plain sloppy work.

Fred

_________________
Fred Tellier
http://www.fetellierguitars.com
Facebook page http://www.facebook.com/pages/FE-Tellier-Guitars/163451547003866

Hi Alan

Apologies , if you felt I misinterpreted your comment, but I dont think I did, although fair to say my quote suggests otherwise

I guess in a somewhat roundabout way, I was talking about those 'close' but not exact copies of Martin designs, where you 'might as well get one with the Martin name on the headstock' - Its clear that there are some fantastic makers, many on here that use Martin Designs or close to , but with the attention to detail that is breathtaking...and are obviously lovely instruments, but as the rest of my comment concluded, are these enough to differentiate them from the best from the Martin factory to the point where the makers will become 'known'? I dont have the answer, its merely a question, but if I look around at the best known single luthiers, the one thing they seem to have in common is that their instruments do have a unique design asthetic (to go along with superb build and material quality).

Tonally as others have said, the best players will turn most ugly ducklings into swans - and maybe the reason so many of us average players spend too much time and money looking for the holy grail, is to compensate for lack of talent .... but at least I get to play some lovely diverse instruments in the hunt!

I'm interested n that thread too Fred. Went to UMGF and searched but no luck.

_________________
Thank You and Best To All

I'm posting this follow up as I think I'm beginning to see my personal perception of factory and hand built guitars much more clearly with the help of this forum.

My guitar world and playing is very insular. I hang in my little music room or the couch and play the guitars I built, rarely venturing out into the world of music and other guitars. Therefore, I believe I've developed an equally insular understanding of guitar tone and have adjusted my limited playing ability to the guitars that hang on my wall. It would not be reasonable to think I could make any guitar sound good as learning the nuances of my guitars and making them sound good is difficult enough.

When I hear a factory Taylor, Martin, Gibson it doesn't match my expectations of what a guitar should sound like - because I only listen to mine. But I also know what I like and dislike about guitar tone and those factory guitars do not provide that, no matter my expectations. Notwithstanding the few excellent factory guitars that exist out there, of course.

I'm going back to GC and see what my ears hear. May even bring one of my own guitars in just to see what tricks my ears are playing on me.

_________________
Thank You and Best To All