Official Luthiers Forum!

Very good.... but I would suggest you add ' knowing how to get the sound you want out of it BEFORE you build it...'

I have gotten the exact sound I wanted out of all the instruments I have built... but with the caveat that the sound I wanted was only known after they were completed!

(I suspect in all true honesty, that my jest, may well be the truth for more than just me on here )

Looks like you are going to have to change your Signature if you get on the course!
Best of luck with your application Tai, I hope it all works out.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Looking at this from the perspective of a tradesman (not a luthier) I realize that after nearly twenty years of working everyday that my skills are still improving and evolving. Compare my time as a hobby guitar builder, five instruments taking 80-100 hours each, to my time as an apprentice. A five year apprenticeship working 2,000 hours a year, not counting class room instruction time. My five years building guitars doesn't even add up to a first year apprentice. The title of journeyman or master in a trade is earned by working everyday and developing skills. I would be curious to hear from folks who did serve under a luthier as an apprentice. How did it go? What did you start off doing, and how did that luthier work you into learning new skills?

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Kyle

Well... As many here have stated... There's no official professional organization to regulate the title as if you were an Electrician or Plumber... where you have to pass a test and hold a license in your hand....

so it's kinda a gray area....

My best indication is that you become one when your stuff is in demand... Just building a dozen guitars that sit in your living room isn't a good yardstick....

On the other hand - you know you are on the way when people are happy to give you "Market price" money for your stuff or your skills...

Thanks

When I went to woodworking school my instructor was an old school realist from winterpeg manitoba.He told us that in woodworking there are plenty of saw and hammer people who put up their shingle advertisement and away they went. That didn/t mean that they knew what they were doing it was and still is an unregulated business. People , do ,can, and will call themselves master luthier, guitarmaker , etc etc .because, we are in an unregulated business anyone from joe schmo music store, to whoever who has the $$$ can set themselves up, and no one can stop them.My 2 cents.

There isn't really a need to regulate woodworking, because anyone can build cabinets and frame houses. Doing a good job is another matter entirely.

As for luthiery a certain degree of competence is required to fix or build guitars. You need a high degree of precision, ability to work with various materials (not just wood), be able to spot problems even when they appear small at first glance, etc.. I suspect there are no regulation because it's not critical like plumbing or electrical where safety is involved. Worst thing that can happen with an improperly fixed guitar is an unprofessional job or a broken guitar. However a bad electrical or plumbing job can mean a house fire or a flood!

The fear with regulation is that it makes it hard for people to get in, however it may help with getting more income for those who are in fact competent. This is one reason why I feel I need some kind of a formal training in luthiery even if I can learn what the schools teach fairly quickly. The networking is also critical too.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Yes, anyone can build cabinets, but house framing needs to pass inspection, same as plumbing and electrical.

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

In the 80's when a great number of luthiers were starting to form what came to known as the Association of Stringed Instruments Artisans, we talked about that very thing. Our concept was we would act sort of like the PGA, and have standardized skill tests to rank the members. We wanted to provide an entity for the retail merchant seeking repairmen who passed the tests - AND be involved in developing a curriculum for potential repairmen to learn.

The luthiers (guitar makers, violin makers, bow makers, etc.) would be similar to players on the Pro Tour, and then the rest ranked like amateurs. It never panned out, but in the early stages - it was seriously discussed among the steering committee members.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

That would be my house, Filippo! It ate light bulbs until I replaced all the light fixtures and corrected the many wiring mistakes. The worst was the wire connections in the main panel breaker not being tightened at all! Burned right through the side of the breaker.

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

You haven't seen bad wiring until you come to Taiwan....

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

For starters in Taiwan nobody has any concept of safety ground or otherwise. I mean you cannot buy 3 conductor wires (necessary for 3 pronged circuitry) at all simply because nobody uses it. So it means the third prong is usually never connected and I've been shocked touching computer cases all the time... Also people double tap all the time, it is SOP for electricians here.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Totally works. I saw it on Gilligan's Island.

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http://www.CostaGuitars.com
PMoMC

There are some real advantages to the guild regulation of a craft, but there are disadvantages as well.

On the plus side, anybody who has passed the exam will be a competent worker, so you don't have to worry so much about whether the guy working on your expensive instrument really knows what he's doing. Restricting the number of people in the trade helps keep wages up.

On the minus side, that complete knowledge of 'standard practice' can sometimes stifle innovation. Restrictions on entry into the trade can slide easily into nepotism: the only people who pass master's exams may be the sons of masters, and most journeymen may never have the chance to advance, becoming wage labor.

C.F.Martin I moved to the US in 1833 over a dispute with the local violin maker's guild. Iirc, he had already received his master's rating as a guitar maker in Vienna, but the Marnuekirchen guild wouldn't recognize it, and he couldn't open a guitar shop in his home town until he became a master violin maker. Since he wasn't interested in fiddles, he left.

One of the US luthier's organizations tried to establish a rating system, but the effort foundered. Apparently they tried several different sets of standards, but the membership couldn't agree on them. If all you want to make are historical reproductions, do you need to know about carbon fiber or how to wire a pickup?

What about the major manufacturers? Don't they have some kind of standard for certifying repair technicans?
I realize there's a world of difference between repair of factory instruments and construction of new instruments, but from my perspective, building a new one is easier than repairing an old one. They are different skill sets, so the standards would have to be different, and therein lies the problem. Manufacturers have no incentive to certify builders, it would have to be an orginization composed of manufacturers and builders, maybe like NAMM.

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A man hears what he wants to hear, and disreguards the rest. Paul Simon

Back when I ran my retail repair shop in a large local music store, I became an authorized service center for both Gibson and Fender simply at the whim of the company rep who came in quarterly to take our orders. I filled out the paperwork, and VOILA! I was allowed to add their corporate logos to my signage.

Of course, neither Fender nor Gibson paid all that well on warranty work, but I had access to parts at wholesale prices, and was recommended by both companies when clients sought repair by authorized repair techs. It made two great feathers in my cap as far as the public was concerned.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

People have been paying me for 7 years to build and repair guitars.And 40 years to build just about anything you can think of out of wood.Who cares what they call me as long as they keep paying me.

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James W Bolan
Nashville Tennessee

Most major manufacturers don't employ trained builders but use people off the street to do one step over and over. Certification in that environment makes no sense.

I knew the factory workers were not trained builders, but I thought the techs authorized to do warranty work had to meet some kind of standard. Chris has indicated that filling out the paperwork was all that was required, so no real QA/QC for warranty repair techs.
Never mind.

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A man hears what he wants to hear, and disreguards the rest. Paul Simon

I'm not sure but I thought Martin requires some kind of extensive testing before you can become an authorized repair shop. I tried asking Taylor about it but they told me to talk to the distributor in my country...

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

When you can make a guitar that sounds, plays, and looks better than one you could afford to buy.
I tell my friends I build guitars in my garage but I know nothing about how to repair them, so I guess I'm not a Luthier.

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wah
Wah-wah-wah-wah
Wah

I used to know some builders who thought repairmen weren't real luthiers.
I figured I had the skills to take them apart, repair them, and reassemble them put me in a more esoteric bracket.... but maybe not.

I enjoy repairing or building equally.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

I actually enjoy restoration a lot more... it offers unique set of challenge and the reward is great.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Ya right!...NOT!


Is like dis dude...

Sorry no guarantees.

Warranty stops at the door. Simple eh!

Other than a quick set up or some bondo in a crack for me buddies, me don't do no more repairs. No way , no how.

and you know what...
me is much happier now that me got all that B.S. out of me hair. Leaves more time for me lady friend and fishing.

However Flipo...me accord you your HO.


blessings

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


.

The guitars in question was extensively damaged and it pretty much required an entire suite of refurbishment, but I still change as little about the guitar as possible (that was the client's requirement after all), so it meant no added truss rod even though it's a ladder braced steel string guitar in an extremely humid environment (some classical guitars even have truss rods under this kind of condition). I would have loved to restore Fenders or Les Pauls but I simply don't know what kind of restoration work can be done on electric guitars, as they rarely suffer extensive body cracks like acoustic guitars could. Maybe patch up the neck if it broke or undo a hack job... Most people who owns vintage electric would leave them well alone.

I don't know about restoring vintage Martins, not that I'd ever see it, but the pressure would be great for sure.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

This conversation is like asking what it means to be an artist.

My wife is an artist - she really is. Graduated from Rhode Island School of Design in the mid-80s, has more or less been making a living
at painting ever since, and does pretty well compared to most other artists we know.

At a party I introduce my wife to an acquaintance. She asks what my wife does for a living. My wife reluctantly answers,

"Well...., I'm an artist".
The acquaintance responds,
"Oh great! I have a four year old that's an artist too!"

I personally don't know any 4 year old or person of any age who calls himself an attorney
without passing the bar.

With art and luthiery, there is no bar. But there sure is ego. Master ego.