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It isn't. What I wanted was clarification as to whether or not you've used it. Have you?


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I don't see the relevance.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

Frankly, one of the interesting things about the conversation is that it's taken on an almost moral quality. Rather than seeing the way the wood's used as an expression of artistic vision b/w luthier and buyer, it's become a zero sum game of us v. them. Real musicians are poor, play out, and struggle to make ends meet, and they can't afford the stuff. Those who can are lesser because they're well off and only play at home.

Then we have the dimension of actually discussing the tonal potential of the wood, which is where whether or not one has first hand experience working it and/or hearing a finished instrument becomes a contributing factor. Dave said it taps like cardboard, Hesh indicated indifference, and I can't remember the rest off hand.

A clip from YouTube won't do it. The difference, if there is one, is likely in subtlety. I read article just this week saying that professional violinists couldn't tell the difference between a Strad and a modern violin in a blind test, and my own experience with blind listening tests has been pretty mixed as well. I'm inclined to believe I wouldn't hear the difference in a blind test myself, but not having first hand experience with The Tree, that's as declarative as I believe I can reasonably get. I know Michael Watts loves his Tree Kostal and believes he certainly does hear it. He's a working musician who seems to be out and about.


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I haven't taken any kind of a moral stance, I don't believe.

I'll build a guitar for whoever out of whatever.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

Over the years as mentioned above, it has been my choice to stay clear of intentionally stocking or supplying the more rare tone wood sets. And as suggested in this thread there indeed is a pricing game that needs to be played out so that all the parties cash in and the end clients get their dream product. Stuff happens -- just too risky and stressful for me.

So my guess (and only a guess) the morals related issue might be, if the maker say, doubled or what ever his/her pricing to have extra back up sets on hand in case of an anomaly. And in the end all goes well -- should the client be refunded the costs of the back up materials? Really, finding the rare tone wood was a windfall in the first place going back the sawyer -- so where are the bench marks for equity?

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

The relevance would be how much standing your comment has:



Have you built with it or not? Have you played a guitar made with it in person or not? Have you listened to a guitar made with it in person or not? These are simple questions. I haven't, so I'm not making declarative comments about it.

Hahaha yeah I know what you mean. I got a call from a guy last week who wanted me to set his intonation. He's started noticing that a guitar is not a perfectly tuned instrument. So he wanted to deliver the guitar and sit and watch while I did the work. After a few emails I gathered that he was an engineering professor at the local university.

There is no way in hell I would ever allow an engineer to sit and watch while I work on his precious Martin guitar

I think I know what you mean though. Last year I built a Selmer because I really like that style. I would not have built one for someone without at least first building one. They are a very different animal. I also built a parlor guitar for the first time which happens to sound stellar, the Selmer is just... okay. I also have one of my own designs of which many are out in the wild so those I'm confident in. I think Selmer's, Parlors and my own design are what I am going to focus on. For first time builds I get the best plans and more or less stick to them unless something just seems wrong. Then I have a baseline to work with.

My goal (once my new shop is up and running) is to build guitars and have stock so people can choose from. Commissions make me nervous. I think I am fairly consistent now but I'd hate to build one that just doesn't come out right. I have a classical guitar I built ten years ago and it's still the best classical guitar I've ever built, there is just something about it. They all at least sound good but some have more magic then others. I have some one who wants a dreadnaught now. I have not built one in ten years and only ever built about 5 of them. No problem.

It is an interesting business this guitar making is.

"Dave said it taps like cardboard,"

I made a set out of BRW and carbon fiber cloth that had a "tupperware" tap tone. It made a fine sounding guitar. I don't give much importance to "glassy" tap tones anymore.

"The relevance would be how much standing your comment has:"

Hi James,
I think those of us who have built a few hundred instruments and worked with wood over the course of 30 - 40 years have gained an understanding of wood's properties and limitations. I agree with Whisperer, although some pieces are better than others there is none with magical qualities.

"Really, finding the rare tone wood was a windfall in the first place going back the sawyer -- so where are the bench marks for equity?."

Often the wood is sold before the hype happens. The sawyer bought the log from someone - where does his cut come in?
The real money is in selling - convincing people that what you have or make is so unique and better than what anyone else has that it is worth a lot more money.

Just as there are art collectors there are guitar collectors. I don't have a problem with that. Compared to the prices paid for art even the most expensive collector guitars are a drop in the bucket. It's easy to say "that's not the way I build" but if someone offered me 20K for a guitar it might be.

Sounds like you really just have a problem with me thinking that I'd be able to make a good sounding guitar out of material I've never seen or felt.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

It seems to me like you're trying to add an emotional context rather than admit whether or not you have concrete experience and standing behind your comments on the topic. I find it difficult for people to make poor sounding guitars, and I'm more than confident that you can make a nice one. We can agree to disagree. Is the guitarwhisperer speaking from actual experience, or is he just bullsh**ing? The world will never know.


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Often the wood is sold before the hype happens. The sawyer bought the log from someone - where does his cut come in?

I believe standing timber is priced and sold based on what quality can be expected on average. Now there are loggers that make claims about their trees and even name them -- for sure that is where the up charging begins.

Again just guessing.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Oh geez. I'm not adding anything. You're just trying to pick a fight so you latched onto a completely innocuous comment of mine and are reading a ton into it.

My experience is that I can make a good sounding guitar out of pretty much anything, so I feel I can have confidence in making something nice out of whatever material my customers pick. Nothing more, nothing less.

Not sure what there is to "agree to disagree" about either, since you don't really seem to have a point that I can discern, unless you're saying thatfor some reason I shouldn't feel like I could make a nice sounding guitar out of material from "The Tree".

What's your point?

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Old growth, shmold growth!

The Tree has some prominence in the niche world of fine guitars we all enjoy. It's interesting to get the different views points on it. I know Hesh, Dave, and Zeke have all had first hand experience with it. I'm not sure if you have, so I asked. That's all. Seems simple enough. You're adding all this "pick a fight" drama, say you don't get the question, etc, but won't answer, so we'll leave it at that. I'm not interesting in getting all spun up about it any more than I already have.


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Good.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

I think a James was doing is trying to filter the comments based on who has and who hasn't had first hand experience. Pretty logical and simple question. From what I can gather it appears "theguitarwhisperer" has not had first hand experience. That does not make him any less entitled to his opinion but does affect the credibility that is attached to the statements made.

Shucks, and I thought were were going to get a flame going.....


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I just don't see what's so incredible or contentious about me saying that I'm sure I could make a nice sounding guitar out of "The Tree" just because I haven't touched any.

I've bought many sets of wood off the interne from a variety of sources and make great sounding instruments with them all, so I don't see why it's such a stretch for me to think that a "The Tree" build would be any different so I don't see the relevance.

In my experience, there is no such thing as "Magic Wood", but I guess I can't credibly rule out the possibility of Magic since I haven't actually done a "The Tree" build.

James is saying he's trying to get opinions on the actual wood itself, but I'm not offering an opinion on the wood directly, but rather my experiences working a variety of woods in general. So based on that, I'm confident I could make a good sounding guitar out of "The Tree" or most any other piece of mahogany.

I still don't know what his point was, or why my credibility is hurt based on that.

Obviously, you guys just want to fight.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

Yea.... There's still hope


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"but does affect the credibility that is attached to the statements made."

Hilarious! So maybe when members disagree the posts can be sent to the OLF credibility police for approval or deletion. Maybe the NSA could scan the posts before hand! And Lance can add a credibility rating along with number of posts a member submits.

Actually, might be best to make your point in a post and move on -- ya'think?

Well, I think we have pretty much all beaten this one to...

What was the original question?

PITA is going to get you Hans for the emoticon....

Hah! But the horse is already dead...
Hesh, ever seen the PITA commercial where a model in a fur coat is laying on a couch licking her fur coat? After a few seconds, she starts coughing and coughs up a hairball, then starts licking again...punch line is "Fur is for animals".

I always thought that was PETA (people eating tasty animals) Hesh. But maybe PITA (pain in the ...) is more appropriate!

Yea, I meant PETA. I do like a little animal once in a while, but I don't need a seal coat. Wool works for me, and conversely, re-constituted Coke bottles don't.

I'm right there in the middle ground with you, Hans. I don't like to see animals mistreated, but still throw a few on the grill.