Official Luthiers Forum!

I confess to having very limited experience with piezo UST's, other than hearing more quacky-sounding performances on guitars with them than I'd care to mention, or to wish on my worst enemies. So, I've been doing some research, reading reviews... There's a lot of very persuasive enthusiasm out there for the D-TAR Wave-Length. I've also heard Rick speak very persuasively about the advantages of the 18 volt system, and I've heard him demonstrate the Timber-Line pickup through the Mama Bear. That was a jaw-dropping experience.

The opinions I've found so far are unanimous that the Wave-Length is by far the best-sounding UST available. Would any of you be inclined to disagree?

(I'm not talking about comparing this or any other UST to SBT's like the K&K, but, rather, this UST to other UST's.)

Thanks!

_________________
Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

I use the B-Band system which is feather light and its non-piezo technology which will help limit feedback.
My favorite so far....

_________________
Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

todd,

i know you're looking for other piezo suggestions, but i'm going to back up the wavelength with another great testimony. i love them, and they're straightforward to install.
in a side by side comparison - one of my guitars with the baggs double barrel (undersaddle and mic), and one of my guitars with a wavelength - both playing through the same system, same di, i couldn't tell which one had the mic. granted, the two guitars have very different sounds, so the test was not a blind one by any stretch. but still, the wavelength sounds just as good as the double source for less bucks and installs with greater ease. i love it.

phil

ps. by the way, i stay away from the "load and lock" version because you need to drill a massive hole through the end at which point your committed for ever. not a great thing because we know that great gains are still being made in acoustic amplification. if you want to replace it with something newer and better in 5 years, you won't be able to do it if you installed the load and lock.

Todd I don't have a lot of experience with UST's but I can say that the wavelength is without a doubt my favourite out of the fishman stereo blender and the Baggs ribbon transducer ,which are the only other ones I have had in my guitars over the years. The only other UST's that I have heard live and think are on a par with the Wavelength are the Maton AP5 and some of the Takamine systems, but you are paying probably double the price and a lot more work to install.

Regards

Craig.

Thanks, Peter, Phil, and Craig for your input. Much appreciated.

The B-Band is the other one that lots of people seem to think is the least "quacky". I have a B-Band AST (their soundboard transducer) in one of my guitars, but I don't have any experience with their UST.

Everybody says the D-TAR Wave-Length has a great, non-quacky sound, and lots of headroom, and many say it outshines them all. Any other B-Band UST users (or Fishman, Baggs, etc) want to challenge that?

_________________
Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

My good friend Don Alder (2007 Winfield champ) uses the Dtar 18 v preamps, but drives them with a Fishman UST - he says he likes that sound combo better.

I have also installed a few of the KK powerblend systems, which I think are amazing - its the pure western triple tansducer with KK's piezo strip UST, then mixed in the preamp. Sounds mighty fine to me, and with the external pre, no electronics or batteries in the guitar. Plus you can add the internals to another guitar without buying the pre again - sweet.

_________________
Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Interesting, Tony. Thanks for passing that on.


I'll bet that sounds great. However, in performance situations where it's necessary to use the UST alone to prevent feedback, does the K&K UST sound as good and provide as much headroom as the D-TAR? I don't know if you have an opinion about that, but that's the question I would have to ask.

I absolutely despise the typical piezo UST sound, so I'm looking for something that sounds as far from that as possible, but has the feedback resistance of a UST.

Thanks for your input, Tony.

_________________
Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

I do not have any experience with the D-Tar system but would like to try it out. The reason for my post is to say that I do have experience with the B-Band UST and I much prefer the sound of these over the traditional UST's. The nice thing is that they are paper thin and under normal conditions you dont have to adjust the saddle. They also do not have that "quack" tone to them and to my ears sound more like a mic than they do a UST.

_________________
Reguards,

Ken H

Thanks for weighing in on the B-Band UST, Ken. A lot of people seem to share your opinion of them.

_________________
Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Never had the chance to A/B them todd ... maybe you can give it a shot !!!!

the nice thing is with the mixing preamp, you can add just a hint of the pure western, and it wont feedback at that level.

_________________
Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Yeah, I'd love to A/B a lot of these, but that's not so easily accomplished...

Another UST that seems to get a lot of very good reviews is the PUTW (Pickup the World) Stealth. Anybody here have experience wih that one?

PUTW also makes an SBT, the #27, which some say is better than the K&K. That can also be had in a combo with their UST, with an external preamp, much like the K&K system you're talking about, Tony.

_________________
Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Doug Young's done a lot of testing of pickups. Check out http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/pickuptest.htm

Thanks, Warren! That should be very helpful. I'll listen to all that when I next get a chance to get my laptop on a high-speed connection.

_________________
Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

I've used the D-Tar and Highlander. I've got an order upcoming for a B-Band, but it will be my first.

The D-Tar is hands down the easiest ust to install. Good quality, very attractive price, and very good natural tone. The tone trim pots are a very useful feature. Yes, the lock and load is a commitment, but it sure is a user friendly battery holding system. If a person wanted to revert to a conventional strap, a very attractive plug could be made with a little imagination.

The Highlander is hands down the highest quality unit I've seen, but VERY sensitive to it's installation. When I know I'm going to use a Highlander, I'll slot the bridge for the PU and bridge saddle on my milling machine while the bridge is still in it's blank form. The PU slot has to be perfect and consistent depth and for the correct compression of the PU element. That said, when properly installed the Highlander is a very durable, versatile and natural sounding system. BTW, Rick Turner (the T in D-Tar) worked with Highlander in in's early days.

The 18v issue is not as black and white as some think. There is a discussion on it on the Highlander site in the FAQ section.
http://www.highlanderpickups.com/faq/faq.htm

I had the good fortune to hear play and talk to Don Alder last weekend at the Harp Guitar gathering. Yes, he's a D-Tar user, but has switched to using a straight Wavelength system. He also pairs it with a Seymore Duncan soundhole MagMic and mixes them outboard depending on what he's after and the room/system requires.

All of that said, it still is a crap shoot which system will deliver the "best" sound to any given instrument and set of ears. Best bet is to work with an experienced installer working closely with the user to dial in the best combination.
-C

_________________
Freeborn Guitars
and home of BeauGuard©

Chas, thanks a lot for your input. Very helpful.

I do understand that there really isn't any one "best" pickup. There are so many variables with any given player in any given performance situation. On the other hand, when many player's ears agree that a certain pickup sounds "better" than others they've tried, and, specifically, that it sounds more "natural" or has a lot less of the typical UST quacky, brittle sound, that's meaningful to me.

_________________
Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Just found this on the PUTW site, regarding 9 volt and 18 volt systems (they have preamps in both voltages)...

http://www.pick-uptheworld.com/9or18.htm

_________________
Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Todd,

I have a PUTW system and couldn't be happier. They have changed the name of the Stealth to the I/O and it is truly an amazing sounding UST. It has very little quack. I have the I/O and also the #54 which is a two element SBT and sounds a lot better than the #27 which only has one element. The #54 has a very warm natural acoustic tone but like you mentioned of other SBT, lacks the punch of an UST. I use the PUTW stereo PowerPlug preamp which plugs right into the endpin output jack. With that preamp, I can blend the output of the two pickups right at my guitar. So if I want a warmer more natural tone for solo acoustic fingerstyle, I can blend it more toward the #54, but if I'm playing with a band I can blend it more to the I/O. I have a recording I did of the #54 by itself and would be happy to record the I/O by itself and then the two blended if you are interested. Just let me know.

Best,
Dan

_________________
Dan

Dan, thanks a lot for weighing in with your experience of the PUTW systems. That's great to hear. The more I look into it, the more it looks like the D-TAR, B-Band, and PUTW systems may all be excellent choices, with a lot of fans of each saying they sound a lot less quacky than your typical UST. I don't seem to find as many roads leading me to K&K for a UST, or even for a UST/SBT combo system. Not to say I disregard Tony's input, though.

One thing I like about the PUTW system is that the preamp (along with the batteries) is external (K&K gives you that option, too, as Tony said). Another thing I like about their UST is that it comes in a 3/16" wide version. Some of my instruments have wide saddle slots/thick saddles.

As I understand it, Dan, the PUTW stereo Power Plug preamp comes only in 9 volts, so I assume you are using a 9 volt system. Have you ever experienced any clipping or distortion that would lead you to think the additional headroom of an 18v system would give you better sound? Some assert that distortion, especially on the initial pick attack, is part of what is heard as the quackiness of a UST pickup's sound. As stated in the blurb I linked to above, PUTW claims that this is not an issue with their pickups; they seem to be recommending their 18v preamp for use only with other makes of USTs, not their own. What does your experience say about this?

_________________
Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

I have had no problems whatsoever with the 9 volt system. There is plenty of headroom and plenty of punch. I play in a band at our Church and the other acoustic player is using a Baggs Element through a Baggs PADI and I would say the PUTW has every bit the attack and presence of the Baggs, just without as much quack I highly recommend using the I/O in combination with the #54 because when I run them together, man does it sound good. Mind you, the I/O is great by itself but together with the #54 it is just spectacular. BTW, I had the #54 by itself first and I never once had any feedback and that was playing in a band in front of 15" monitors cranked pretty loud. PUTW SBT are VERY stable. It just lacked the punch so I added the I/O.

I should also mention that Dave from PUTW who designs and assembles all of the pickups is very approachable and I spent many a phone call with him deciding on the correct placement of the #54 transducers to get the sound I was trying to achieve. For me it worked best to install the transducers on the bridge plate along and right up against the x braces, one on the treble side and one on the bass side. Let me know if you want recordings. I have been meaning to do it so maybe if you ask that will give me some incentive to actually do it

_________________
Dan

Thanks, Dan. One more question for you, if you don't mind: how has it been for you having the preamp plugged into the end pin? It seems like it could be vulnerable to being bumped or knocked out or something... does it seem safe and secure there in your experience? Any issues with the guitar strap? I wonder if the belt-clip version might be a better idea...

_________________
Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

I love the endpin location. In fact, I don't think I would like the strap location because it seems like I would feel it hanging from the strap. When you plug it in, you can actually feel it snap into place just like plugging in a cable. It is very secure. It has never interfered with the strap. No one usually notices it until they get up close either. Also, it is easier on your cables because they hang straight down from the bottom rather than sticking out of the guitar at a right angle, so it's just like having a right angle connector on the cable. The stereo Power Plug (mono probably does too but I don't know) has a switch that has a "mute" position so I can switch it to that and it does not cause a "Pop" in the PA when we finish playing. It's a new feature from the earlier versions which were on/off only. The only negative feature is that you have to have a screwdriver to change the battery, but that is such a rare occurrence (never so far) that it isn't really a problem.

_________________
Dan

Thanks, Dan. And, since you offered, I'd love to hear the recordings.

_________________
Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

You can find the recordings Here. Right now I only have a recording of the #54 but I will record the I/O tomorrow night and let you know by PM when it's ready.

_________________
Dan

I'd like to add another issue to this discussion: The signal chain. As a sound engineer when not building guitars, I get to see a lot of different pickups in different applications -- solo guitar, small acoustic trio, larger acoustic band, acoustic in rock and roll band. There is no one pickup that I'd choose to use in any one of these applications. If the musician or band likes a lot of stage volume, I am not going to recommend a soundboard transducer because they are more prone to feedback which is going to be greater at higher stage SPLs (sound pressure levels). House SPLs will have an effect, too, on pickup performance depending upon the design of the room and its acoustics, in particular its reflections.

I'm not a proponent of the acoustic guitar amp primarily because manufacturers suggest that using the amp as main and monitor is problematic. Pro systems use a split to divide the input signal to go to separate main and monitor systems that are EQed separately for a reason -- while there will be frequencies that feedback in common as a result of the room and the instrument, the problem is greater with the monitor system because the signal is effectively being fed back into the input device -- the guitar. The amount of cut of frequecies is likely to be greater on the monitor end than on the main because of the proximity of the signal being directed back at the player. If you cut that much from the mains it's going to sound dull.

All USTs are "quacky," some less than others. Quack generally occurs around 7k so pulling that frequency down in the mix generally will improve things, with a moderate Q. But quackiness is also due to the nature of putting a sensor directly under the saddle.

Finally, these pickups were designed to be used in professional systems moreso than just a Mackie VZL12 and a pair of 450's or EONS. They will perform as intended when used with a proper preamp, and have separate monitor and main amps and EQ. Using less will be functional, but don't complain that your guitar is feeding back when you spent as much on the pickup and its installation as you did on the rest of your entire signal chain. Even the basics of setting up the main speakers in front of the player rather than in the plane or behind will have a great affect on performance. Doing less is a disservice to the pickup manufacturer.

Thanks, Dan. I'm stuck at home with a bad cold and a dial-up connection, but, as soon as I can get out and get a high-speed connection, I'll give it a listen.

_________________
Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/