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This thread by the Padma first appeared at http://www.luthierforum.

TWO MANDOS!

Yes its true,
the Padma, him needed a diversion while the oil finish is curing on the Zookie and on the Grace builds...so me decides to knock of two mandos.

Look me even did a drawing.



An octave mandola at about 24-25" string length
and a modified "A" style at about 14 7/8"





In the pic, from the bottom
is a birch blank,
then a blank with the ribs sliced,
then the small laminated mando ready for the bandsaw
and at the top is the laminated and ban sawed octave mando.


The A has hemlock up the neck with Parota on either side...Parota is sometimes called Mexican walnut, a rare tropical wood similar to teak in appearance, with grain going every which way, smooth and straight and then soft and punky like in its tear out time.

The octave mandola has West Indian Locust wood laminated up the neck and may be trimmed with it as well. Probably.

Tops are from me birthday stash of Marios finest.

They will be "curved" flat tops. Just to maintain my obsession with the voluptuous.

Other than that...I have no idea what they gonna look like.

We will see.





Ready for bending along with some birch on birch and parota banding that still needs to be ripped.
And yes the strip of hemlock in the A mandos neck is tapered.





Thanks Grant.

Ya, we often forget..."size no matter"....Yoda taught us that one.

pic of first of 2 possibly 3 layers of headstock laminating





looking to end up with this laminated effect...without the gaudy blink















Thank you Steve,

Here be 2 pics of the banding me gonna use on the small mando.

It is birch ply, fir and parota.

Unfortunately in pictures, one cannot see the effects of the light as it moves over the edge and changes from end grain to side grain in the ply laminate...What happens is a flicker in the two grains, as every second piece of birch veneer is light and then it becomes dark, while the dark ones turn light....Quite kinetic yet subtle kind a thing.

Anyways here is a block up of it.






Heres how the laminating of the headstock came out.

Learned a lesson...if your after a gracefull transition...don't laminate with a soft open grained wood...the lamb line comes out real fuzzie...and here me after a hard edge...oh well.










See fuzzie wuzzies!


Bent ready for scraping and then glue~em~up in jig time.



back for the small mando











note the recurve is on the inside....ya! Measurements are approximate ... but close enough.

final sanding and glue time

...das all me did this afternoon....is feeding time.





Thank you Ken.

So they are both kerfed now.

See.







Ribs are at least 1/8". Then there is a 1/8 band or inner side rib and then the kurfing. This inner band permits some room to sculpt a nice curve into the 1/8 " ribs. It also produces a much thicker and heavier rib.

In me brains a good thick heavy rib is were its at for better volume response from the top plate... We know that thin ribs do nothing sonically...but thick ribs well...listen to that thin skin stretched over the thick heavy solid rim of the banjo...loud eh!

Guitar builders sacrifice this volume cuz its just too hard to bend a 1/8" or 0.12" rib and forget 0.16" set of ribs.

Well thats me theory and me sticken tooz it! Ya!


Note that I have also introduced inside corner blocks that become an outside edge detail as well. Just was not happy with an internal corner block and then having to band that little short double compounded curved edge on the two corners.


Me been working spruce flat tops. You know, mirthday bifts from you conspirators to do good.

Sanded down to 0.10, yes me measured.

So the experiments are to see how to adapt me carved top wishboners to a flat top thats been bent and flexed to preserve the voluptuousness.....It involves much experimental flexing of the top plate...to confirm to the profile of the main bridge support.

In all this flexin and adapting and, holy , can you dig it, me using vernier calipers...

I have found out something rather interesting .

Once the height of the brace for the bridge has been established, and the top plate clamped in to place
around the perimeter....

The top plate looks like it has been carved.


Small rant on Process

Up till now, I have been doing arch tops. A removal or subtractive process. Each piec of wood being carved and sculpted to fit the last piece. Tops carved to fit the box perimeter which is not flat but a compound curve.

The flat top is an additive process in that the braces have to be sculpted first with the arch in place and then added to the box. Then the top bent is into place on the ribs and the perimeter. It has been challenging. Wood have been easier if the back was opened, but I wanted / needed the stability of a 3 sided box when doing the ribs and then flexing the top on to them and the perimeter.

Up till now, in all my carved tops, the wood has been subtracted from to fit the perimeter profile of a compound curve. Here in the flat top, all that sculpting is gone. And so to end up with a curve to the top plate that conforms to the perimeter and has the necessary rise in her belly at the bridge has been
fun to say the lest.


Mush on me brain trying to figur it all out.






Now if the bracing was a radius, this wold be a snap. But it ain't as you can see. It starts to go into a recurve.






















Now what I wonder about and invite impute on....
An over flexed plate will add to the sonic qualities of the instrument in that the plate is in tension that causes the sound waves to really be reflected off from the plate....
However I wonder in a few years from now when the plates start to relax and conform to the forced bends, if the sound waves , no longer being reflected from a plate in tension,will be affected and how so.
I read somewhere that the sonic "qualities" diminish....any input"













Good, me glad you likes the rosette.

Here is the unfinished carving of the other mando rosette.





Pic of me sand shaping the bracing.



In this pic you can see the 3 feet that the Virzi plate gonna be installed on. Thank you Greg N. for turning me on to the Virzi Brothers and there plate.



Pic of top being glued to bracing.









Regarding the carving...thank you ...was fun to do.

Um regarding spruce.

Well personal, and I have kept me mouth shut regarding tooling spruce around this forum.
However alls I can say is ....I LIKE CEDAR.

Regarding Carving spruce...well I really like cedar.

Regarding spruce and me dulcimers...Now cedar really sounds warm and friendly and a bit more bassier and did I ever mention that I LIKE CEDAR.

Unfortunately, the sad part is ... the Padma, well him 'lergic to cedar...go figure.

Then to boot, all you dudes gift the Padma a life time supply of spruce tops for me dulcimers....now tell me whats a guy suppose to do? Guess me gonna hafta grin and bear it, I mean the pain of it all...like some of them tops are in the 30 to 40 grain count, stiff like iron, flexes across the grain like a ballarena, rings like glass, gots medulla rays and claw to drool over, I mean, ya know ...whats a guy suppose to do?


the
Padma

Ps: Did I ever mention that I like cedar.




Ya Steve...same stuff.

Well Steve

I installs the Virzi plate first and then close her up.

Now by now you have probably gotten it that me after tone quality, not volume...want volume...go buy an amp is what I tells them.

The Virzi plate is a small, ovular, very thin plate (0.06) or so of spruce with a very wide grain (6-12 /inch) suspended from the top plate or its bracing. Most have "C" shaped sound holes. They look like this.





It lowers the volume some what but boosts the harmonics by 2 to 4 maybe even 5 partials for them that has the ears to hear it. Mellows out the sound, helps greatly in elimination of wolf tones.

Some like, most don't, those that don't, usually have Marshals, Peavies or Traynors pushing 100 gazillion mega watts of deafness at you. Them that do, can usually tell the difference between a $100 and $110 bottle of wine.

They are not very common. Nor are really gooder trained ears.

Lloyd Loar liked them in his F5s, an upgrade if you will.

Most have since been cannibalized by the deaf to feed the volume demon. Although they are regaining popularity in the last decade.

Go here see more.

http://www.siminoff.net/pages/virzi.background-2.html

To day I worked out the maths for the plate to fit me mandola, will make the plate tomorrow and post
some pics.





So the Virzi Plate is finished. Very wide grain spruce...don't need strength of grain...need softer grain
to be sensitive to the bass and the high partials.

0.08 in the center to about 0.06 on the perimeter. inside wings of the "C" holes 0.06

Mounted on 3, 1/4 inch square feet carved into the bracing with 3 birch square head dowels... the two front ones are directly under the bridge feet.

Most of the early Virzi plates had rather excessive feet to stand on. Why I don't know...All I can see is them feets sucken up the volume and acting as a damper to the vibes...probably why so many were removed by the infidels.

The location of the 3 mounts are based on 22.4 % inwards from the ends of the plates...the natural nodal
for the plate.








The following label is now pasted on the Virzi Plate.

Seems we just had a post about ethics.

Many of these plates that Lloyd Loar, in his wisdom installed in the Gibson F5 have been Virziectomized by the "Make me sound louder than the other dudes in the band" mentality. Especially the Bluegrassers, God less them.





So as an artist, once I sign it .... that is how I wish it to be seen and heard...now after its sold...its yours ...do as you wish with it ...or to it...but if you do modify it, Please have the ethics. decency and kindness to not refer to it as something the Padma made, cuz that ain't the way I intended her to sound, or look. Restorations excluded.

Simple request don't you think?




Well the Steve

Marimbas, xylophones, glockenspiels and all them there type of hit em with something to get it to ring use 22.4 % of the length. Has something to do with the nodal point. If you realy wanna understand it, take a hunk of wood ...let it be the hypotheical string length, calculate the frets on that length and see how them frets gonna line up with 22.4% of that length. After you done did that...get back to me with the results cuz I was to lazy to do this and well would realy like to know as well.

so me just followed suit.

You gotts a problem shaveing you say???



Front



Back




Neck ready for carving.





In this pic you can see the curved shape of the "flat top" . That's right, its a flat top that has been bent and glued to the shaped braces as detailed earlier in this thread. The carving around the sound hole shows real gooder in this pic.
Also note the really curved / carved sides on this build. All nicely rounded and voluptuous to hold in the hands and cradle, ya just wanna caress her to sing for you.





This is the small mando, the back is on but not trimmed.





Here it is with its top waiting to get glued down. I may just save this top for another build and remake
a new one that dose not have to be flexed as much to be glued down. Too much flexing a top will create an instrument with terrific sonic response .....but only for a few years, then the wood relaxes into its forced shape and the client is bringing it back because "she don't sound like she use too". Not good.



Over arched the top for the small mando and since the ribs have been profiled and curf installed, I figured it would be faster to just carve a new top...this is spruce from the orphanage, don't know what flavour...real thin. Yes, was half a top so I added some wings which will be no more that a few grains wide after the trim has been installed. So the top is off of the ribs rim and as such is basically one piece.
















About 2/3 finished, ready for the fine cleanup carve and then sanding.





couple things about flexing tops. If you flex too much, the instrument sounds real gooder ...for a few years, then the wood relaxes into the new shape and its sonic properties diminish. Now heating and bending to the new shape will of course eliminate this situation as the top will be "bent" and not flexed.

Regarding flexing. cross grain is real easy,
longitudinal flexing is not. Especially in spruce. That's why we use it for tops.

The idea of a rim is actually quite good. Is how they stretch a drum skin.

Now when you look at a drum/banjo head, there are bolts around a perimeter that is on a flat plain.
That flat plain makes it easy to get the top plate down. IF the bracing is in place, then tightening up the plate to the rim with a rim would work.


I would question the need for the rim, and just go with wing nuts and bolts attached to the plywood layout/clamping board much like the type violin makers use....then tighten them down like a drum and finally come in with the rubber banding between the clamps.

However since we are heating the plate, we only got a few seconds to capitalize on that heat, so we would loose the wing nut bolts and go for quick closing ratchet type clamps.




Yo, Greg, buddy, pal,

Thank you for this comment. Is true.

However, I would much rather you remove my name than the Virzi Plate. You hearing what me saying.

My interest is in its sonic qualities and properties. Its lineage, pedigree, and who the heck fondled it on stage, or fixed the loose fret, is of no great interest to me, besides, by then, I will probably be
dead . and then what?

Don't know why people is so intimidated with carving. Carving a neck, carving a rosette. No difference, Remember, Yoda taught us "size no matter."





thanks Ron.It truly is very easy, and very rewarding to stop the monkeys from babbling in the head and whittle away in peace for a few hours.






Mercenary!
Heathen, Infidel.

You would dishonour another luthiers work,

a brother in our craft,
for a few pieces of gold!
Shame! Greg N. Shame!

HAVE YOU NO RESPECT?

How would you feel if I,
or some other "luthier"
cut the bowel off the back of your hemi,




"just so it had a flat back to rest against the players gut."
Hmmm Greg,
How would you feel.

Common now...speak truths here.


I believe our community of up and coming luthiers
would wish to be guided down the garden path of our craft
by
moral and upstanding individuals
who hold ethics
as their
sharpest
tool.


I would much rather you remove my name than the Virzi Plate. You hearing what me saying




NOTE
Before I carry on with this thread, I must pause and say that Mr. Greg Nelson is a personal friend, and a highly respected luthier. And with that said and believing in integrity, I will not take the advantage of him by posting the last word and closing this thread. Besides ...him and the Padma ... we likes to joke.

Carrying on...

Here be the finished carving.





total time 4 1/2 hours with a few smoke and beer breaks included.






So sitting here and looking at it, perhaps me should have invested another hour or so and done a better job. Oh well. Is just a mando.


Now on to making the bracing and the Virzi plate.


The bracing and the Virzi plate are just siting in place with a block of wood
underneath the plate holding it up. The other brace has yet to be made.

The brace is of hemlock, and the plate is a wide grained spruce.

















Thank you Joe,

The Virzi plate was standard issue for the top of the line F5 mando, and optional on all of the rest of the F5 mandos.

They are not traditional to any instrument, were invented in the early 1920s, by the Virzi brothers and used primarily in the violin family. Lloyd Loar was in to sonics in a big way and had them installed in the Gibson F5s. Notice I said "had them installed" Loar was not a luthier, he was a sound engineer and a violinist. They really didn't catch on with the infidels, as they muted the sound or volume. Fortunately they a few more partials harmonically and create a more mellow sound, Unfortunately the heathens want VOLUME, not quality so many of the plates were gutted. A few luthiers have been reintroducing them in the last decade, but not many.

Go here.

http://www.siminoff.net/pages/virzi.background-2.html



Set the brace into the ribs and mounted the plate.






Will be closing her up later today.

Then its on to cutting the rabbit for the trim.


Here they are closed up.



The small one needs to be trimmed and banded...hopefully later today.

Well do to an unwanted sound port opening up, I found it necessary to do
some inlay work on the corners. Actualy I am glad it happened, because it has opened
up a whole new approach to the design and hence the construction of the instrument.

Future instruments will have similar corner piece inlays, but they will be done first
and then will be banded. The corner blocks will be of the same wood as the inlay
and both will probably be carved as well. We will see.






You can see the sculpted roundness of the sides in these pics. Since there is a fair
amount of meat left in the sides, I have thought of carving a design in to them
that matches the carved rosette. We will see.





I have penciled out the designs on the ribs (sides) that match the carved rosettes and as such they are both ready for the carving...this is the most relaxing part of building...when I gets to do the carving...
maybe tomorrow I might get a chance to get into the shop.

Sorry the pics are a bit out of focus.

Work out the spacing with masking tape then just reposition it for the other side.





how the design caries through to the end





Same design, different spacing on the large mando







Well Jesse, me glad you be inspired...and now that you is ...why not make some sawdust or sumptin?


Ok me clamped them in a vise and went at it with some chisels. Just gonna post a mess of pics and not bother with words. Four sides, two end pieces...gonna take 5 to 6 days to do both instruments... So maybe before Christmas. But then maybe I can pass it off on to one of me elves, slip round the back and have a snooze before me gotta get up into the sleigh. Ho ho ho.!



































Ya, still pretty rough looking, sort of like me in the mornings.


more...





























Will probably be at the carving of the ribs on these 2 mandos for a few more days...pics when finished. Then its on to carving the heals. Seriously thinking of carving the headstocks as well as the fret boards.

Since I have divided my shop into machinery down stairs and everything else up stairs, I am enjoying the quiet.
I really do not want to be turning on any machinery.
In fact I've seriously been thinking of abandoning using machinery and returning to the old traditional ways of our ancient craft.
I rather quite enjoy just sitting, carving and farting. Doggie sits right under my stool and farts back, so doggie and me, well we gets along just fine.




What can I say.




Blessings
the
Padma

_________________
.

Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


.

Padma, I'm enjoying this as much as I enjoyed "Gratitude" and "Grace." When I saw the guitars, I thought the design concept would naturally lend itself to mandolins. There's something about this curvy but softly pointed shape that I find pretty fascinating. I really like the visual styling of Murray Kuun's guitars for the same reason. This whole one piece neck and side rib thing is quite an unusual concept, but it's clearly working to satisfy your design esthetic. (Well...okay...some of your necks are laminated, so I should have said "integral" sides) Question, though: What is your strategy to change a neck angle or correct a bow if necessary sometime in the future?
Best regards,
Patrick

Yay for the Patric....

An intelligent question like this shows me that someone is actually paying some attention to my madness.
Thank you Patrick, thank you, thank you. May you hair never fall out.

Ok to answer your question directly....

I don't have any strategy in this regards.
However...go take a look at the old Gibsons... birch necks...no reenforcement...no rod...and still straight...how bout that eh...

Just birch and well chosen grain.

So me make "intelligent guesses" (now where have we just heard them 2 words) and use birch in all my building.

Only time I use steel is if a customer requests and the truth be known...I don't actively seek any custom work of dealing with other peoples demons, I have enough problems dealing with my own... and my own all all reach out, grab me by the brain and squeeze the prototype visions untill I say OK OK I'll build it! Yes building is my way of walking this path of luthiery on the road to the nothingness of the what.
....................................................................................


Ok ... but to the point... and to answer your question directly...

first lower the bridge ...
then if necessary pull frets, resurface / retool the fret board and refret. This is why my fret boards are quite thick
and cantilevered as much as they are.

Now by the time any of them really need a neck adjustment, the thing will be an ancient antique and self destructing in some museum and be worth big bucks, Ill be dead, long gone and couldn't give a dangle berry.

Now that covers the prototypes built to date.

If you notice, I have started to laminate the necks with sitka ...supper stiff...

Been thinking of switching to nylon...or even gut.
Been thinking of loosing all metal...including the tuners...and the frets.
I have been giving some thoughts of leaving that wishbone center piece in ...sorta like the semi hollow carved top acoustics with hummers, or at least for the full length of the fret board. But then I'd gotta start rethingking the sound box and and and ....

well the truth really be known ... the Padma tries not to think...it huts me head.

Besides as Milarepa once said

"Do not think,
do not act,
don't even meditate!
Leave your mind in its natural state."


So now what?


Blessings
the
Padma


this here post has been posted

_________________
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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


.

Yeah...I like your sense of humor, and frankly, I anticipated that "I'll be dead and gone" thing. But that's okay and your point is well taken. As a matter of fact, I own a couple of those old Gibsons and an old Martin, and their necks are still straight. Wonderful! And your second point about adjustable bridges, re-planing fingerboards, etc., is also well taken. That'll work for much longer than you will need to worry about any of these instruments. I enjoy your out-of-the-mainstream concepts, and I'm pretty sure there will be a lot of wild experimenting going on by some of our members in the very near future. I don't know how marketable all this experimenting will be (easier for a hobbyist to make big leaps, because income isn't a factor to a hobby builder) and I don't know how many will post their results, but I'm dead certain you've made some mental wheels start turning. Of course, you've made some other people just sit and scratch their heads and say "huh?" but that's fine, too. Good on ya'.
Thanks.
Patrick

The:
Hey, hows life?
I was looking at some turkey calls I have made, they are basicly wooden pots with a glass or slate lid that you rub with a wooden stick to make the turkey sound. They have a little slab of glass inside that reflects the sound back off the top and out the holes in the bottom. Much like a Virzi plate. I believe the plate is critical for the tone of the call, but not sure. Anyway... I wondered if anyone ever put a plate like that in a musical instrument. Now I know.. Thanks for the enlightenment.
I enjoyed your work. I don' t know if I'll get A Round Tooit. But I think I'll start off with a copy of your sound hole cutter. If you think it's ok for me to copy that.
Bill

Thank you BIll,

truth Bill. I try not to think...copy as you wish...but remember every time you do a copy you just be waterin
it down...
So if you really want a copy of me sound hole I will be glad to supply it...

just slip $29.95 cash in an envelope to the Padma care of this here forum.


blessings
the
Padma

_________________
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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


.

Neat ideas and designs, but I gotta ask, do you talk like the Cookie Monster in real life?

My dear Mr. Mike Dotson

May you rest assured that I am most capable of socially acceptable intelligent intercourse of a most gregarious and gracious manor as befitting the Queens English.

Clear effective communication is necessary to convey my design concepts and well as you know ...everybody understand the Cookie.


blessings
the
Paadma

_________________
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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


.

I went back and re-read The's post with the Cookie Monster voice. Now that is funny.

Steve

Me gotta hand it to you two duders...me been writing and posting like dat for 7 years and you are the first two duders dat finally gets it. YA!

The Padma




PS> me likes the bike. YA!

_________________
.

Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


.

Oh thank God, I thought I was the only one that could hear it!

This is one of the best Internet forum posts I think I have ever stumbled upon

Look forward to seeing more pics (with commentary) especially of the finished work and maybe a few more of the dog.

You ain't alone brother...it was the first thing I thought. It takes a bit of warming up to, for then it's great.

_________________
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

Ya!

Doggie!

Him name Buddy~satva. Him good doggie.

Me should be back on this build in 2-3days, with pics and babble.
Probably address the fret boards.

In the mean time why not go looks at some of me other post on building 6 stringers.


blessings
the
Padama

_________________
.

Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


.

You have by far the coolest woodworkers apron I have ever seen!

_________________
http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

Yo the Parcer

thank you,

me glad you like me apron

me gots all sorts of aprons

that is me Santa in his workshop grubbs.

also use it for visitin monks.

See monks.




Blessing
the
Padma

_________________
.

Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


.

Padma,
Is that the Dalai Lama or photoshop?

gandolf the purple!

_________________
sweat the small stuff.

What an outstanding post! Padma, you be the best!

_________________
Jim Howell
Charlotte, NC

Padma,
You are a true treasure, my friend....as are your instruments. If your posts here
don't light someone's fire, I have to say that their woodpile has got to be wet.

I wasn't sure what I thought of you, your methods or your instruments when I
first saw you here at the forum, but i have to say that I honestly can't remember
having so much fun reading posts....any time in the past.

Your work is truly beautiful and the way you make things happen, although
a bit eccentric and unorthodox, is fun, practical and, I have to say, just plain
inspiring.

Thanks for all of it,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

Wow!
thats a lot of work.....

_________________
Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

In light of the recent issues and accusations, re-visiting this thread will hopefully change some hearts and minds.

Looking forward to your return, Padma.

_________________
JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Padma,

What program are you using to make your drawings?

Thanks,

Tom

_________________
Tom Krebs

.
Well its been over a year since me last post to these builds.

The carving is all finished and here is the smaller of the two getting its sun bursting
with the airbrush.




It is now strung up ...still needs final set up. Looks like this...sorry, don't know why photo bucket has them so small. Oh well.






Sorry for the soft focus....wait till finished...then me post better eye candy.
The sound is bright, clear ring with good sustain, sorta bell like. Has excellent volume for something this small and a tone plate inside of her. Plays well all the way up the neck. Very very organic feel to hold and caress, as there are no sharp square edges to get hung up on. Very rounded curvey and kinda voluptuous in a smooth elegant way...Just holding her make me wish I was a picker. Some picker just gonna love this sweetie all up. Definitely a show / stage instrument.

and her big sister well...
here is a close up of the gold mica gilding on the larger mando.



Here is her rim.



Hopefully in another few weeks they will both be finished and me will post some really gooder pics of
them. If I can find two pickers, then a sound track to boot.

blessings
the
Padma

_________________
.

Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


.

I work in Corel Draw and Corel Photo Paint.

_________________
.

Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


.