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Truly, I fail to see how any new local jobs would be created. They'll take Jimmy, the kid who had been selling amps and subs to the Honda Ricer kids and stick him in the music department. It will be like all the "specialists" at Home Despot. You'll ask him about different strings and he'll say, "the thicker one's thump more man."

Then when the mom and pop music stores go out of business, there will be 5-10 fewer jobs.

I won't go on any of my political rants as to why I think this happens, but suffice it to say, just like many of us searching for the best deal on a tool, people like to stretch their dollar. If they aren't selling the instrument any cheaper, it wouldn't seem to make much sense. But they do have a built in audience as well as a marketing system already in place.

They also sell appliances and though it is just speculation on my part, I would bet that they don't sell nearly as many as Sears or HD. But the local guy appliance stores probably took a big hit from the big box appliance folks too, so I guess that's a moot point.

Darrin

Great story Hesh. It seems the farther we get away from personal contact at the community level, the more nostalgic I get. It isn't that there aren't great things going on now, but it does seem that it's getting harder and harder to be a small guy that wants to just build or sell guitars and maybe make a living doing it.
I have several friends/aquaintances/clients that are billionaires. We have had talks. They have told me stories about the main thrust in big business being the elimination of competition (us) and cutting off the flow of all goods except what channels through their company. This is the strategy of big buisiness. I think we need to be real about what they are up to. The best thing that guitar builders could do is stay out of competition with them (ie.. hand build extraordinary one of a kind guitars that could only be gotten that way) They have no way to compete with that. Guess I went off a little there. Loved your story.

Got my first 'real' guitar, a Martin 0-16NY, at the local music store I started hanging out at when I was about 8. By that time I was in high school, was doing yard work to make money but still couldn't afford the $214 for the guitar and HS case. They gave me the guitar and let me make payments every week until it was paid off. How cool is that? I still have that guitar too!

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Well the big thing one has to realize is that corporations aren't bound by nationality or national interest. A corporation has a single goal:

To make the maximum amount of profit possible.

Everything that a corporation does revolves around this single purpose. If it were to do anything else (for instance, take into account ethics or values), then it would be doing a disservice to its stock holders and investors since the corporation exists for their profit alone.

That being said, I can't see how musical instruments being offered at Best Buy could have any really dramatic impact on the industry as a whole. Sure, Best Buy is a large retail company, but so is Guitar Center, Sam Ash, or any of the other big instrument business that either have stores or exist online. If you want to argue that Ma and Pa along with their small town guitar shop are being pushed out of the way, it's something that happened long before Best Buy ever entered the picture. Especially with the advent of the internet, there's no way you could ever go back to those times. Politics aside, the world is very different today than it was 50 years ago. Why on earth would I buy something from my local store when I could order it for cheaper from another store online? Frankly, I don't even go to Best Buy or Guitar Center anymore because there are always better products and better prices to be found from the convenience of my own computer.

I think a lot of people here are really overrating the significance of stores like Best Buy. I see my local Best Buy like some of you see small businesses because aside from its corporate status, it's really no different. Best Buy doesn't have lower prices at all and the stores are limited by the fact that they only have exposure to their own locale and the fact that their limited exposure doesn't allow them to move their merchandise fast enough to keep up to date with moving technology. If you're going to complain about anything bringing down the prices, blame the increase in competition and the technological advances that have inevitably created it...

The moment we were able to shop for goods anywhere in the world without leaving our houses was the moment Ma and Pa's little retail store down the street was doomed.

Kaizen. We implemented Kaizen thinking in the steel fab company that I worked for back in 1999. It's an amazing way to lean out your work areas, processes while at the same time increasing productivity.

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"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

I think it's awesome!

When I was in California on business in July last year, my notebook died. I needed a new one, and that was my first introduction to 'Best Buy'. Got a nice new HP laptop for under $600 (ok, it was on sale). The same computer retails for (and I'm not kidding) three times as much, in Australia.

Hope the price on guitars has the same disparity, 'cause I'll be spending another three weeks in Mountain View next month, and Best Buy is just down the road from my hotel...

Will each Taylor come with the Geek Squad? $100 Service Warranty?

Maybe the mom & pop stores will become outlets for "specialty" guitars... like the ones you are making.

Yep! A giant tub o' lard for you!

It's no coincidence that Toyota (who essentially invented lean) is more profitable than all other auto makers...put together. And it's not surprising that Godin, seriously implementing lean manufacturing, is able to make so many guitars, profitably, in a 1st world country.

It'd be a really long rant if I started on Walmart and how unevil they are, but the short rant is this: they're in the distribution business, just like the post office, but they ship stuff first and then see if someone'll pay for the package later. Alternately: they're the middle-men who take a cut between the people who actually make things (manufacturers) and the people who buy them (consumers). The goal, as I see it, is to get rid of middle men altogether and link the producers to the consumers as directly as possible and the internet's making that happen for a lot of companies that couldn't even exist otherwise (like luthiers and the people who supply them!).

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

I am probably closer to the "video game" age than most here, and I've played HUNDREDS of hours of them (I am ashamed of such ) and I have a number of cousins/nephews/brother who are great testament to decreasing attention spans in people who play video games and watch TV a lot. I am well aware that there is a lot of skill these kids have (incredible in fact) but those games are designed to keep attention. No one will ever convince me that video games increase patience, perseverance, or attention span. Reaction time? Yes. Eye-finger coordination? Yes

Back to subject, BB will be following Circuit City soon (I hope ) so hopefully none of the independent guitar retailers have much to worry about from them.

Great discussion - thanks Hesh

It takes patience, perseverance, and yes, even attention span to get good at gaming just like it takes the same to get good at playing an instrument. Key word here is: GOOD. Any idiot can learn 3 chords on a guitar and any idiot can go around shooting stuff in a game. Practicing for 8-12 hours a day to perfect that skill, however, takes a lot of skill whether people would like to admit it or not. And yes, I do know people who have played games for 8-12 hours a day perfecting their gameplay. Often it's not fun at all. It becomes a tedious job, but if you want to be good, that's what it takes.

If you want to see what their offering just check out the web site. They don't look like cheap versions to me. The Taylor Grand Auditorium $2,999.99 is the same price at Guitar Center. The Martins are cheap laminate bodies.



Mark

In reality, this really is not different from Guitar Center or Sam Ash if you think about it. The only issue I might see is that they probably don't know how to really take care of their guitars, but from my experience, neither do most Guitar Centers...

Montgomery wards...man you are dating yourself.
It was those catalogs that where lying around the house that sparked my interest is guitars.
I was real young then...

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Rich S

"The inconvenience of poor quality will linger long after the thrill of a bargain has been forgotten"

There is still plenty of hope.

I have also seen more "Boutique" type stores appearing -- knowledgeable folks selling high end stuff and providing top notch services....
Stuff like:
Local small time Computer stores
High end kitchen supply
Woodworking and "Hobby" type stores
Beading and jewelry stores
Custom tailors
Butcher shops
Ethnic groceries

Those folks really don't compete with "Big Box" stores -- in the sense that the Box store's business model can't provide what the Boutique store can do and the Boutique store isn't interested in selling junk and making pennies per transaction.... You can't buy a Sorby chisel at Home Depot..... You can't even buy an Irwin Blue Chip chisel at Home depot.... BUT.... the Small Guy will NEVER beat Home Depot on prices for 10p Nails, 8' 2x4's, and 3/4" pipe fittings....

The Small businesses that tend to get wrecked were the Low quality, High Price, Terrible service ones..... which will die off quick once the BORG invades.

So... Best Buy can't pay for really good "Guitar Techs" ..... and you Can't just stick in the Guitar Restore Disk to fix your Guitar..... so they will either farm out that business... or hire inexperienced folks then "Train" them in the basics... But.... just like their Computer techs.... the Good ones will move on because they can make more $$$ somewhere else.

Thanks

John

Totally O.T. but it was the sears catalog that sparked my interest in women's underwear

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Oh Andy

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Are you still buying from them? I know Sears has been going through a tough time. Has it had any impact on the women's underwear market?

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

If there was any problem with Best Buy selling guitars from these familiar makers, the problem
would lie more with the makers than with Best Buy. They are the ones who choose what outlets are
acceptable or not.

Any store can approach any vendor for the right or privilege of selling their product and the ball
falls in the maker's end of the court when time comes to allow them to sell and to ship product to
them.

I couldn't care less who sells the products of the large production houses. You never know, a
player who starts on a Korean Strat or Formica Martin from Best buy may eventually end up having
a desire to commission a custom acoustic from a small shop or solo builder. So, someone who may
otherwise never wander into the guitar department of a music store, may decide to stray over to the
guitar counter while they're shopping for a new blue ray player or laptop at their local Best Buy.

I think that it could play out as a benefit to the high end guitar market since loads of players may
be carved from what would otherwise be an electronics shopping crowd....not to mention their kids.
At least they're not selling the absolute trash that is available at Target and WalMart. The less people
who end up with those disasters, the better, in my opinion.

I say, "Sell on Best Buy...sell on."

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

Good on 'em!

I've been told that, so far as putting other companies out of business with shady tactics, Sears is quite prolific. Their favourite is to subcontract a company to make an item for them, ramp up order quantities quickly to force the company to expand beyond its means...then cut off orders completely...and buy them out at a pittance when they're fully into financial distress.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Um, I meant interest in looking at women in women's underwear. But to answer your question no, I find the sears stuff is too uncomfortable.

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http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

We're drifting off topic, but depending on the situation, there can be a significant loss of value in doing this, namely if the sales process is consultative. In many instances this consultation is best performed face to face or on the phone at worst, not via a web page.

e.g. I used to work at a motorcycle parts store. We'd often get folks that would walk in with a list of things they'd need and we'd go through the parts catalogs to find exactly what parts they were, discuss whether they could salvage a part, show them examples of parts, discuss options etc. Often after spending an hour or so with a customer I'd ask if they'd like to place the order or buy the parts and often they'd say that no, our prices were too high and they'd order it over the phone. I'd then ask them why they didn't just call them in the first place to which they'd answer that the phone dudes wouldn't spend this much time with them figuring out what they truly need. After a little more discussion, I'd usually manage to convince about 50% of these customers that this was a valuable service that is worth paying for and so they would. Not all of the other guys had such success.

The store I worked at is now out of business and those folks that needed consultation to repair their bikes need to drive further to find that consultation. If all of the parts places go out of business the phone guys will be forced to pick up the consultation and guess what, they'll raise their prices to compensate but, you won't have the option of doing it face to face anymore and they probably won't do as good a job as an expert would face to face.

I like being able to speak with an expert when purchasing such things and will pay extra to do so. Not everyone is.

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Having grown up with video games I have to agree. Video games generally require very little actual cognition or complex thought process. Usually how you get 'good' is by mindless repetition. In a racing or shooter type game you aren't learning a real life skill but rather conforming to the physics of the game. Even in the more complex games like role playing games they require more time investment than skill. They actually require less skill and what knowledge of the game is needed is gained through the hours invested, no great intelligence is required. So yes it may require hours to get good at a video game but it doesn't take much effort. If there are any games that require complex thought or skill I haven't played them. Btw, Guitar Hero is one of the worst; the extent of the game is basically that you have to push whichever of the five buttons that pops up on the screen.

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Jeremy Douglas

Although i find it sometimes frustrating because you can't 'fake' the difficult parts like you can in real life, I think it is a pretty good introduction to rhythm (and fun at parties with non-musician types). Speaking of rhythm, playing the drums on Rock Band is almost as hard as the real thing, especially at the higher skill levels.

There's been too much anecdotal evidence of guitar hero/rock band interesting kids in real instruments for me to discount it.

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http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

The musicians who appreciate outstanding design, craftsmanship and service will find their way to you and the big outlets will continue to serve a different clientele. While some musicians may opt for a cheaper factory guitar in today's economic climate, I don't see how these big stores will be able to continue this expansion.

I teach strings in a middle school and I have seen horrible instruments being peddled by Costco and ebay sellers, this despite my warnings and recommendations to the parents. They're not ever worth repairing, and are never set up properly.
peace,
Rodger

I think even though it's not like playing an actual guitar, I find it to be a good finger exercise, and the drums that is a good timing exercise. It has it's purpose.