Official Luthiers Forum!

I have been thinking that this would be a great topic to discuss on the OLF - what is your criteria for how you evaluate/judge custom guitars.

What I am speaking of are the guitars that we build and some OLFers sell. So from a potential customer's point of view and your own point of view what is the criteria that these guitars are evaluated against?

For me there are three things that I am looking to see and the importance of these three things is not in any order because personally I believe them all to be very important.

1) Tone - entirely subjective but folks have their own personal preferences. For me I like a warm, fatter tone with strong mids, sparkling highs, tight bass, and great sustain.

2) Playability - the guitar has to play well, have good intonation, no buzzing, a comfortable neck in all playing positions, and good fret work.

3) Fit and Finish/build quality - again this is not meant to be number 3 in my list because I believe that this is every bit as important as the other two above. I look at neck angles, saddle height, neck to body joint, binding quality, a commercially competitive finish, neat workmanship and an overall impression that the guitar looks as nicely built or better than one of the usual suspect f*ctory guitars.

Where I am going with this is that the value proposition of custom guitars has to be more winning and a higher bar IMHO than the value prop of the factory guitars or who would want to purchase/own/adopt one?

What do you think? How do you judge a guitar and what are you looking to see? What level of value in a custom guitar in your opinion will compete well with the factory guitars that have positive reputations, have been around as long as dirt, and in the minds of many are the iconic just-gotta-have-one-of-those guitars that many players adore?

Thanks!

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Ann Arbor Guitars

Well ol Heshie...here's my thoughts. I've been talking this subject to death with everyone I know. One of your questions dealt with potential customer's point of view.

First I think custom guitar buyer's ALREADY understand the value position is higher...otherwise they wouldn't be custom buyers.

I think custom guitar buyers represent about 20 -30% of the total pool of buyers that are interested in guitars....understanding of course that this number fluctuates with any given number of variables (like the economy)...but for the perspective of the discussion I'll use those numbers.

Moving on I think those perspective buyers fall into categories. I'll try and define a couple.

1.) Pro Musician - someone that holds playability on the same podium as tone. In other words setup/playability and tone must be both present and in pristine standing. Bling takes a back seat. I think this represent the smaller portion of the 20-30% mentioned above. Look at Tommy Emmanuel's guitars.

2.) Musician - Someone that may hold playability on the higher podium....or hold tone on the higher podium. Depends on the guitar. Maybe depends on cash. Bling starts to come into play here. They represent a larger portion of buyers from the previously mentioned pool.

2.) Bling Buyers - Someone that expects the guitar to scream buy me just by looking at it. These people seek out custom builders because lets face it...custom builders do things with hands the factories just can't afford to do through the use of hands. Potentially the highest portion from the pool.

All of which is open to disagreement.

As I read your perspective I thought, "Yeah...that's me too"....but we (you more so than me) are builders. We are our own worst critics. Our expectations (considered from a total package viewpoint) are very very high. This represents 'our' criteria.

I constantly find players that are amazed that a person can build a guitar. It's the weirdest thing. Especially when you consider how much 'lore' any given players spouts when talking about guitars. Surely they know all instruments were first crafted by hand????

From a marketing perspective this discussion is crucial.

Chris

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There is no difference between the man that thinks he can....and the man that thinks he cannot.

Hi Hesh,

I agree with the three ingredients you list as important criteria. In fact, for me, they are required because every guitar I build must an ambassador for my work. I think your last question is the one to focus on. You asked, "What level of value in a custom guitar in your opinion will compete well with the factory guitars that have positive reputations, have been around as long as dirt, and in the minds of many are the iconic just-gotta-have-one-of-those guitars that many players adore?" The answer is sound. If the instrument's playability and craftsmanship is spot on, then it will be the sound that will prevent the player putting it down.

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Ron

Cool question. When you get to a certain level, I don't believe quality is what sets custom guitars apart so much as the experience or fantasy aspect involved in the process of having one made. The Santa Cruz and Goodall's I've played have often been better than the one man shop guitars in just about all aspects, save finish in some cases. To borrow from Malcom Gladwell's new book, Outliers, when you're a pro basketball player, height advantage goes away when everyone is 6'5".

In addition to what is already stated, I think one allure to players is they can buy something that is NOT available in the general guitar market. Another is, the guitar player can decide on features of the guitar that is just not possible buying factory.

For instance, When I bought my first custom guitar in 1985 (Franklin Prairie State Model) I bought a guitar that just did not exist unless I wanted to shell out big bucks for an original Larson Brothers 20's/30's vintage guitar. Also, nobody made a jumbo then with OM depth.

When I bought my 2nd Custom guitar, a Franklin OM, I got to pick out all the details for the guitar wrt playability (nut width, made specifically for my style playing, etc) and asthethics (Old growth BRW from 1960's, custom inlay, etc).

Granted, today,there are alot more factory choices than there was then, but I think the allure for custom is still "custom" - being able to pick what you want on your dream guitar - that is certainly worth $.

Glenn

Hesh, my guitar building buddy, I think this is a great topic, because of the number of builders at OLF who are trying to sell their work.

I think about this subject a lot.
It is important to me to "define my niche" and who my customer is.

Every builder cannot be at the very peak of the custom world, but every builder can have his own market.

If you humbly & honestly judge your own work, the overall product, the fit, finish, tone, playability, cosmetic features (bling), price level of bought fittings, case quality, etc, you can begin to determine who will be buying them, and at what price.

If I only purchase the finest and most expensive wood and fittings, but my work is not the very highest level, I will “confuse” the market, in my view. Who is my target market for such a guitar? Is there a customer who wants the finest materials, but doesn’t care if the sound is great or not, is somewhat difficult to play, or does not have a spectacular finish? I may try to fool my market, but not for long.

That is just one example, here is another:

I read of a guy who built guitars of thin OSB (flakeboard) and other parts made of “construction grade” materials, oak for the fretboard. The sound was better than what you would expect from a guitar built of those materials, and the fit was what it was, the playability was good.
He was not trying to fool anyone, and his typical customer knew exactly what he was getting.

The former builder is “doomed” until he can raise his level of quality.
The latter builder is “doomed” by a market that is very specific and too small, and his skill is wasted.

My point is that to be successful, and by that I mean staying as busy as you desire, building the instruments that you like to build, and selling them at a good profit margin, you have to honestly evaluate your current skills, choose your style and price point of guitar based on what you are currently capable of, and be committed to raising your level of quality and materials before moving up the price ladder.
If your reputation does not precede you, your “raised” price will be too hard to accept.

In presenting your work to the potential customer, I think it is important to be honest about what you are making. If what you are describing on your website is not what the customer gets, you will be found out. If the customer expects to get a very top quality guitar at a cheap price, everyone loses.
If you deliver above and beyond what the customer expects, you will be known for that, and you can be successful.

I think time has proven that very few, if any, become well-off building guitars, it is not “important”. But I would not discourage anyone from trying to build and sell, it is a wonderful endeavor.

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https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100008907949110

I'd say 1/20th of that, VERY optimistically, and probably much much lower. Between Godin, Martin, and Taylor they make ~400,000 guitars a year. Add onto that what's imported, and what Fender and Gibson are making as well as the other factories...it gets crazy. I'm pretty sure it's over a million a year. There are not anywhere near 10,000 luthier-built guitars being sold every year.

There's a scale of crazy among players, which determines how you need to sell to them, but I'll just look at the two ends and the middle:

1-Thinks factories have magic, assumes handmade guitars will be inferior: This player needs to see perfect fit and finish, up to factory standards or above, before he'll pick up the guitar. Then it had best sound at least as good as an above average factory guitar. Without naming any builders, the builder to sell to this guy needs to be someone who cares about fit and finish (ie: doesn't make excuses) and builds them consistently enough that they sound a bit better than a factory guitar on average. Better craftsmanship, actually, will be enough here to break the fantasy that the guitar is unattainable. A new one might get inserted in its place...that you're magic, too

2-Thinks handmakers have magic, assumes factory guitars will be inferior: Even worse than #1. While factory guitars are priced, mostly, for about what they're 'worth'...this guy might buy a handmade guitar priced for much more than it's worth. This person will gladly accept gross errors in fit and finish, seeing them as evidence of hand-madedness. Selling to this person revolves around reinforcing the fantasy.

3-Thinks guitars are guitars: Make a better guitar at the same price, or make the same guitar at a lower price. The best ears I've found land on this type. They often have an eclectic mix of semi-expensive guitars that have 'that little extra' and really inexpensive guitars (the -finds-). These guys are very decisive, and they should be as they actually buy with their hands and ears. These guys are the rarest guitar buyer, by far.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

In a way you are asking what "quality" is. Authors like Krenov and Pye have pondered about the same thing decades ago and provide very satisfactory answers.
There are many different levels of expectation and craftsmanship out there, not necessarily in relation to reputation and price.
While lately there's been a relentless focus on "perfection", I think most players are seduced by "feel", which is at least as elusive to describe as tone. We can get carried away and think of the "soul" of the maker, or rather the excellence of his or her craft, imperfections included.
The irony, or course, is that the factory paradigm is bleeding over artisanship, where presentation is given much more attention than "art".
Personally I am continually amazed that in those "instant gratification" times some people are willing to wait a year, often more, for the delivery of a handmade instrument. Which is kind of a gambit really, even with the best makers.
In my darkest days remembering this makes me feel hopeful.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

Great post Bob. I think the romance that surrounds the owing of a hand made instrument is a big factor. In the 60's I always wanted a Martin. When I finally had enough money in the 70's I went to a nice guitar store and played an Alvarez Yari and a 75 D28. I knew down deep the Alvarez sounded, intonated, and played better but I bought the Martin and talked myself into thinking I made the right call because "hey it's a Martin". Of course it was one of the ones with the massive rosewood bridge plate and the bridge in the wrong place but I loved it and probably would never have been happy if I'd bought the better guitar. That still goes on. To a large degree you are selling the romance of whatever hype surrounds your guitars.
Rick Turner said you should by a guitar blindfolded and that's probably the best advice
I've ever heard.
That said I look at the usual stuff. Tone, intonation, neck set, fingerboard drop off, saddle and nut material, tuners, and little things like the miters on the binding, the fit of the heelcap, nut and saddle, uniform width of the binding on the back, whether the end pin is in the center of the end graft- Stuff that tells you if the builder had a personality that involved cutting a few corners from time to time.
Great topic, I look forward to more discussion on this subject.
Terry

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

I've been making custom guitars for over 30 years .

That is a guitar ordered by a player, or dealer ,or collector.
In which they can participate in the wood selection ,scale length
neck width & bling !

Real players that are not famous or well off need a working instrument.
Most pros I've dealt with wanted a working guitar also.
Which they can be offered free from a factory for exposure .
SOME
Dealers want bling .some just a sellable product-does not matter where it came from !
Collectors want bling.They may hang it in the Ferrari garage!

Make the guitars you want -show them to everyone you can .
There are those that will be thrilled with your guitars.
You just need to find them.

Mike

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Mike Collins

I totally respect your willingness to stick to your position, no matter how unpopular it may be!

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

When I read the title of this topic I was thinking that Heshie was asking how we thought the custom market would be going in these tough financial times and I was thinking around Laurent's point above.

One of the thing that a factory brings is a reputation that it's not going to be a hunk of junk, even if it is a hunk of junk. In the mid 2000's Mercedes was making the most unreliable and highest cost for repair vehicles but people kept buying them and burying their heads in the sand that it was worth it.

You don't see it too often, but every now and then you'll see posts on the various forums of someone who buys a custom instrument and is very disappointed with what they get. I think there was one here several months ago and I think everyone agreed that the guitar was definitely poorly done. These "luthiers" are certainly not doing any favors for the custom market and are most certainly making it rougher for those of you who are producing a quality guitar.

It would probably be good for the custom luthiers to do more self promotion and perhaps even a little self policing to keep the market strong. Another plus may be to sell through guitar stores but educate the sales people on what a custom or hand made guit is all about first, possibly even giving them a discount on an instrument so that they'll fall in love and push your product. (Yes, I know this all sounds grate on the screen but isn't so easy to do in real life).

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

Hi,

I think your questions can be best answered by custom instrument buyers.

I bought my latest instrument, a Bouzouki, because of its tonal qualities and "play-ability" first and the way it looked second. I can't describe the tonal properties as it's what I hear and what I want to hear from an instrument and it's to please me first. The way it looks is very important as if it's not pleasing to my eyes I'm not going to buy it. Also if it looks great and doesn't have the sound I'm looking for then no sale.

Hopefully there are some custom instrument buyers browsing the forum and can chime in and tell why they bought their last instrument custom or factory.

Regards,

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Michael Lloyd

“I was born to ignorance, yes, and lesser poverties ...
I was born to privilege that I did not see ... I didn’t know it, but my way was paved” – John Gorka

What I mean by gambit is that the instrument may not completely fulfill all expectations -which may not be realistic-, or that there can be delays.
Not a bad surprise as in poor craftsmanship, or dishonesty.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/