Official Luthiers Forum!

Hi

FYI

http://www.sobellinstruments.com/News20 ... fault.aspx

Scroll down a few pages and you will the neck joint used by Stefan Sobell, Stefan, for those that don't know is an eminent UK Luthier.

How would you describe this type of neck joint, have you seen it before?

John

I believe he previously used spanish neck joints (he favours them for maximum vibration transfer between neck and body as I remember), and that looks like it could be a variation using wenges to hold the ribsi nto the neck. (He mentions wenges)
I think it may be siniilar to the wedged rib to neck joint now used by Romanillos, but fitted after body construction rather than assembling everything at the same time.
Sobell neck joint?

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Interesting neck joint. I agree about the wedges and also noted that it looks like it would be a reasonable joint to construct in his step-by-step process.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I'll remember that name Sobell in case a customer walks in with one needing a re-pitch.

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"Try to be the person your dog thinks you are."

http://sites.google.com/site/bertsguitarshop/

It's hard to tell from the pictures, but it seems to me to be a clever scheme to keep the ease of repairability of Spanish foot design without the structural integrity provided by the 'foot'.

Another one for the :'Needs a reset? Saw off the neck' department.

Cheers
John

Or maybe it just holds well enough In the end the guy is not building since yesterday so he might have got some feedback (be it good or bad) on his necks stability.

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Build log

I believe that you would describe it as "a modified bridle joint" and given the quality of Stefan's building, his long history of making instruments, the pedigree of the people that play them both touring on stage and at home and his current waiting list and prices his instruments command, then I suspect that opportunities for repair men/women to do a neck reset on them will be similar to collecting hen's teeth.

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

"Time wounds all heels" - Groucho Marx. He knew about guitar geometry!"

I know Buck Curran at Bourgeois is a builder who is very much influenced, studies and builds Sobell style guitars. Very nice guitars they are. Maybe Buck will see this and chime in. Great guy and one heck of a luhthier, player and performer as is his wife.

Laurent may have talked to Buck some on this also and have ideas.

Yes - but time is relative and how much time have you got to wait

I could be wrong but I believe that a certain Mr Somogyi uses a "similarish" neck to body joint making any reset "interesting" as he explains in this ANZLF thread.

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Dave-
Thanks for that link to the Somoygi posting.
Until I read it, I didn't know that Guild guitars (practically) never needed neck resets.
I have seen a few guitars with very solid neck attachments (Korean/Japanese) that had neck angle problems, so it's obviously a complicated issue. I had thought that more than the neck block was involved in the whole 'stability' thing.

Cheers
John

I wonder how a neck reset would be done on one of his guitars. He does have a very interesting type of build, which I know nothing about, but I do know that he arches the top plates more then most builders today. I would guess he uses a lot smaller of a radius then 25 feet (smaller in terms of the lenght of the radius meaning a greater top arch). Maybe this in combination with other techniques he uses lowers the chance of needing a neck reset every 20. I would love to hear more about this if anyone knows about the sobell build techniques.

Apparently many of the Larson Bros. guitars, which also implement a very arched top, still don't require neck resets even after the 70 or more years since they were built.

Only having experience with building Spanish necks on classical guitars, but being asked to build some fingerstyle SS not in the very distant future, i prefer not having to change my work methods a whole lot. So I will likely try the Spanish neck, resets be damned.

But it seems to me the Spanish type addresses some of the issues that lead to a reset case:
-the foot fights neckblock rotation
-the hard link between neck and block is not really able to come loose, unlike a tenon or bolt.

Another important point is the UTB. Martin UTBs are just weak compared to what is typical in a Spanish guitar, plus the span is wider and the tension is twice!. And I often seen people feathering the brace ends to nothing. No wonder it folds up in itself! And also no foot to pass some of the load on the back effectively...

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Build log

Looks like the work of a master craftsman to me.

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Stefan is an incredible builder, and even though his guitars are relatively rare here in the US, every builder should experience playing one. He's been an influence on many people, including Rick Turner. And Buck Curran, and me and plenty of others.
From what I know, his method of rectifying the action (if need be) is either to plane the fretboard or lower the bridge. Sobells have a healthy bridge height to begin with, and a fairly thick fretboard, compared to the Martin/Gibson paradigm.
His plates are not domed but cylindrical and from the guitars I've seen from different eras, not always to the same radius. But it's pretty steep, and I believe it adds to the strength of the plates to resist torquing.

Dave, thanks for the link. I am not sure I understand clearly what Ervin does for his neck joint.
I did a couple of Guild neck resets in the past. I am not sure what Guild model Ervin refers to. The neck joints I've seen were straight (non compound), blind dovetails, and the blocks just a bit wider than Martins. Harder to get out because of the lack of void in the pocket, true. Martin's workmanship was eons better than Guild IMHO. Perhaps Guilds are less prone to neck resets because built like tanks (thick plates, heavy bracing, wide blocks).

Alexandru, the need for neck resets for steels is not so much the neck/body junction, but rather the whole geometry. If you look at old(er) Martins or Gibsons in need of neck resets, you can clearly see that the rim is distorting at the soundhole location. In essence the guitar is folding at the waist. So there's not only neck block rotation, but a major weakness there in the design. As Sobell I use a "doughnut" to reinforce the soundhole location, and use two healthy soundhole braces mortised in the UTB. Also, as you noted the UTB should be strong enough to prevent the FB to sink into the soundhole as well, and exacerbate distortion of the box.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

I would have to agree with you Laurent, The need for neck resets cannot be avoided by using "better" joinery in the headblock/ neck. Its a body distortion issue and that cannot just be fixed by a massive headblock either.
I have a 75 Guild 12 string that needs a reset, but I think the neck angle was out from the day it was built.
I think the Martin dovetail with the void is actually better than trying to fill the gap at the end.
You really want the taper of the dovetail to squeeze the heel into the body rims not have contact elsewhere.