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I've made a few attempts with HHG, and never been too comfortable with the process. Mixing, heating, warming parts up - then stressing to get the thing together in time - not fun. Then the cleanup, I find it messier than a quick swipe with a drinking straw on Titebond.

Last night, after flubbing a glue up on an X brace, I convinced myself that I would achieve greater inner peace and personal fulfillment if I abandoned the HHG in favor of Titebond.

This morning I was second-guessing. The forum sages all sing HHG'ss praises. It has a certain romance to it, versus PVA, one of whose initials stands for vinyl. Its natural, baby (though not vegan). And I happened to read Frank Ford's write up of his heat failure tests.

So... I'm thinking maybe just for the bridge. What would be the most beneficial part to glue with HHG? Do you get more open time with thicker or thinner - I've heard both? Do you use a brush for braces, or a squeeze bottle?

I've lost my way here, looking for moral support. Bring me back to the HHG fold, or let me know I'm okay, you're okay, a bridge sticks fine with PVA...

_________________
Gabriel Regalbuto
Carlsbad, California
Freedom 35!

Gabe, Don't worry - use Fish glue. All the benefits of HHG without the fuss.

_________________
"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

Absolutely- though the clean-up is 'easier' with HHG. (Does it inspire a lot of confidence that HHG seems to have practically no adhesion to the wood outside the joint, so that cleanup is easy? Not for me...)
Fish glue cleanup is similar to Titebond or PVA glue cleanup.
I've used HHG and fish glue (and most all of the other common adhesives).
HHG has so many disadvantages-
It needs to be 'prepared'
It goes bad and stinks
It needs to be heated
The parts need to be heated
You need to keep your shop warm
It has a very short open time
etc etc
The main advantage of HHG is that it dries to a very hard/glassy consistency,which some think improves the acoustic properties. Fish glue shares this property. The main disadvantage of fish glue is that it requires a fairly long clamp time.

BTW, both HHG and fish glue also share the property of being difficult to disassemble for repair, with water and heat (and a helluvalot of effort) required if the glue joint is still good and tight. Semi-open joints like Martin-type dovetails with a big gap for injecting steam are the exception. (I had to remove a 12hr old archtop top glued with fish glue and it was a struggle.) Most of the stories about HHG being easy to repair are from old instruments where the hide glue is so brittle and crystallized that the parts just 'pop apart'.

Cheers
John

Todd when you say, "Fill jar 3/4 with glue granules...top with water...", do you mean you fill the jar to the top with water or just add water to the level of the glue granules?

Thanks,
Joe

I think this is one of those situations where you just have to listen to that inner voice, whatever it happens to be saying. If HHG stresses you out, use Titebond, or LMI White. (This is supposed to be fun, right?) A lot of great guitars out there made with Titebond.

I'm a fan of HHG, but, as with most things, it's not entirely a rational preference. I like the fact that the stuff is totally nontoxic, and instrument makers have been using it for hundreds of years. Yeah, you have to move a bit fast when clamping, but it's a bit of useful discipline for me - make sure I've got good tight joinery first, get all the clamps in position, make sure everythings warm, etc.

The beauty of this discussion is that there are several very good alternatives.

Don't overthink it, it's not hard. It was in use centuries ago by guys without thermometers or superpowers, guys! No romance for me, anything about sound transfer or anything else is pure conjecture in my view...it's just a really good adhesive where it's used. PVA is slow and messy, and I have to use it so rarely that I only buy it in the tiny bottles.

Here's my hide glue method, start to finish:

Fill baby-food jar most of the way up with granules.
Pour in some water most of the way to the top of the granules.
Wait a couple hours, see if the granules are jelly or if there's still some dry stuff, add water if not all jelly.
Heat it up, melt it, toss it in the fridge.

My 'glue pot' is a mug of water on a coffee-cup warmer. Same as the one I learned on, from Al Carruth. Just set the jar of glue in it and keep enough water in to keep the temperature uniform. I have a few steel nuts in the bottom of the cup so the jar doesn't sit flat against the bottom.

When I need it, it goes back in the mug and the brush goes in the glue. Slop some glue on whatever needs gluing, and glue it. If it starts getting really thick, then I put in some more water. The more glue you put on, the longer it takes to cool off...which means more open time. If a joint can't go together in under 30 seconds repeatably, then the clamping setup needs to be refined. Back in the fridge when I'm done with it.

I toss it out if it starts to smell. I could see using a heat gun when putting a top on some sides, or if laminating up a multi-laminate neck, but those could be fish-glued if you can't get them together in time.

I prefer to use CA, then hide, then fish, then polyurethane, then epoxy, then PVA, in that order. I prefer each glue very strongly to the one after it in line, and it's been an awfully long time since I've even used epoxy (on wood) or PVA.

_________________
Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

HHG is very easy to use and 'by far' the easiest glue to clean up. Like any of the finishing or pore filling methods etc, you need to understand the processes and follow it properly to have success. If so many good builders are having absolutely no issue whatsoever with HHG and are prepared to sing it's praises openly, yet you are managing to find all sorts of issues to complain about, then chances are it is your own lack of skill and/or knowledge that is holding you back. To address that you simply need to take the time to learn the basics instead of assuming you have them covered.

So much on the net about this, tutes all over the place, take the time to take a bit of this stuff in and you will be fine....If your hide glue stinks, you have probably been sold 'bone' glue instead of high clarity hide glue, most bone glue is made in China, it is darker, more amber in colour than regular HHG, it comes in pearl form which can then be ground for faster water absorption or used as is if you can wait, bone glue does stink but it's cheap. The open time of bone glue is generally less than 192 gram HHG. If you got a great deal on your HHG from Ebay etc and it seems darker than what you are seeing others use, chances are some enterprising fellow with a coffee grinder has had a lend of you.

Here is a tip: Water is really quite good at retaining heat. If you are having problems with open time, try thinning the mix a little this will help and as Bob said, put more on, and as Todd said, go for big squeeze out...really this is pretty simple stuff to use and the initial tack and ease of clean-up makes HHG an absolute pleasure to work with in comparison the any of the PVA's.

Cheers

Kim

Kim-
You must have found 'magic' hide glue if it keeps indefinitely without refrigeration, and doesn't smell bad when it is turned to a semi-liquid goo with a thick fungus layer on top. Congrats.

I am quite capable of using hot hide glue, and the idea that people who haven't become 'converted' to the HHG 'ethic' are incompetent is pretty insulting . I built a lute with very thin staves, and a violin using only HHG, years ago. I've got the baby-bottle warmer, the hide glue, etc in my shop.

It does need preparation, so is not appropriate for the occasional spur-of-the-minute job unless you keep it handy in the refrigerator..
It does spoil unless refrigerated- (ask your local microbiologist; it's standard growth medium for bacteria/fungi) and it does stink when it spoils.
It does require warm conditions while gluing, which can be a problem for the energy-conserving builder in cooler climates, if you don't want to assemble an assortment of plate warmers, heat guns, etc on your bench.
I don't like adding more water than necessary to my work. I don't like to dilute adhesives.
I don't mind cleaning up some squeezeout, and I'd prefer to use a glue which adheres to wood, rather than 'gelling' to an easily-removable residue.

Nothing wrong with HHG- it's a fine adhesive in some respects. There are alternatives which work as well. All adhesives have their drawbacks. Many very good builders seem to produce instruments without using HHG throughout, though the current 'craze' for HHG is probably pushing some to change their ways.

John

A little touchy today John?

I keep a bottle of HHG glue in the fridge, it has never gone off, never gone watery, never stinks even over a whole year and more.

When I need to use my HHG I warm it in a baby food warmer, do the job at hand, and put it back. No other prep is required.

I water my glue down as suites the application because you can do this with HHG and get away with it.

I mind cleaning up squeeze out because I have other things I prefer to do with my time like scratching my old dog behind her ear, therefore I prefer HHG as the job is very quick and easy. HHG cleans from the 'surface' of the wood leaving little risk of the discoloration which can occur under the finish should all traces of PVA glue not be successfully removed from 'within' the wood fibers.

HHG is not a craze, it has been in regular use by fine woodworker for literally thousands of years before PVA, CA or Epoxy was invented. The only "craze" is the exposure provided by the internet to all kinds of other ways to do things.

I have not suggested at any time that there is no alternative to HHG, I have used PVA and it is fine, but I prefer HHG as do many others. My points remains valid and although this may come as a shock, were not directed specifically at you John, but rather the topic at hand.

Again, to "anyone" with a list of problems, this stuff has been around for a long time so no situation is unique to you. Any issue has been over come by those who took the time to understand how to deal with them, so don't blame the glue cause it's probably you.

If you live in snow and ice, move, cause life is so much better in the sunshine and your old dog will thank you

Cheers

Kim

Has anyone tried to glue a bridge with Gorilla's "cold" hide glue? Any experiences either good or bad? Beth

I was a bit verbose, I suppose:

Same as PVA, except you have to add water, heat it up when you use it, and cool it down when you're not using it. Gel time under 1 minute.

The other stuff were just handy tips...you should see my intro to CA!

_________________
Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Okay, I'm not giving up. My grandfather was fond of saying, "what one idiot can do, so can another," and there seems to be no shortage of you all out there making it work...

My original post was really a call for some encouragement. And, barring that, some reassurance that if I use PVA I'll still be better off than buying that Ovation off Craig's List. I got both (encouragement and reassurance, NOT the Ovation), thanks everyone.

I've been surprised to hear so many claim HHG is the easiest to clean up. I've never had much luck with it. Either I'm scraping gooey boogers, or its too hard. I guess I'll have to work on my timing. With titebond, using the proper amount, the squeeze out is collected easily with a pass of a drinking straw along the joint.

I will be trying fish glue one of these days. Actually, with an egg white pore fill, HHG on the braces, and fish on the linings, its starting to sound more like a balanced meal than a balanced guitar.

FYI, I bought the high clarity 192 from Tools For Working Wood. Very slight odor, not bad at all. I mixed a fairly large bottle, I've reheated 10-12 times, kept in the fridge in between. Its over a year now and no signs of anything funky.

_________________
Gabriel Regalbuto
Carlsbad, California
Freedom 35!

Gabe,

As you suspect, clean up is a matter of timing. Wait too long and it can be difficult to get off, too soon and it will smear. What you are looking for is firm gel, not just skinned over liquid, not leathery, but a firm gel. I use a chisel tipped stick and if your timing is right, the glue will just roll right off the wood so easy you will be done in a blink. It helps to dip the chisel tipped stick in the hot water of your glue pot now and then to freshen it up, wipe off the excess, and away you go.

I know lots of info is out there to say you should use distilled water or you should never heat more than 140f or you should mix this much glue with that much water etc, etc, etc but IMHO, and all of this is only my opinion so take from it what you will, that stuff is only a general guide at best and most has only come about to satisfy the modern need for people to know every specific detail before they get their hands dirty in the hope they will not need to find anything out for themselves. If you went back to 1930 and walked into a hardware store to by some HHG, at best the instructions would have read something like "1: Mix with water. 2: Heat until dissolved. 3: Apply glue as required and clamp."

Just remember, the glue has not changed since then so the same rules apply. In fact other than better purification, the glue has not changed much since the Egyptians used it well before there was a Fahrenheit or a thermometer. If you do not experiment and stick too close to a set of 'rules', you will miss out on one of the greatest benefits of the product, and that is it's flexibility in regards to the way it can be adjusted to best suit the task at hand. I have regularly heated hide glue well above 140f for repair work and made good strong glue joints with no discernible loss of strength. I have often added water to thin the glue for certain applications with no discernible loss in strength and have heated the same glue in the same bottle many times with it re-thickening to the point I have added water just to maintain what is my own preferred working viscosity which is akin to warmed honey.

I acknowledge there are opinions out there that point to studies and test which allegedly contradict what I say here about reheating, maximum heat and amount and type of water to use etc. I to have read that fooling with these things can affect the glues overall strength. In fact I will even concede that they are probably correct to a point. But IMO, if indeed these studies and opinions are correct, they are no more so than one who suggest that the horse that won by a nose, is faster than the one who ran second. Yes one was indeed faster but 'both' still ran the course on the day and within a few seconds of each other and we are only trying to achieve a good strong glue joint, not win any race.. And remember this, no matter which horse won on the day, they will both end up glue in the long run, and when that happens they will be chopped up and their relevant bits will be 'BOILED' in a big pot at a temp well over 140f until all the collagen has been rendered from them.

I am not saying here that you can just boil the crap out of your glue and not ruin it, and I am not saying that you can water it down to soup without loss of strength either, but with a bit of common sense and working within reason then there is a lot more scope to this wonderful product than first 'meats' the rib-eye.

Here is some research of my own. I made a batch of HHG in early February 2008, I used plain tap water. I built a guitar and completed all sorts repaired with the same batch of glue making adjustments of water as required. After each session, the glue was stored in the fridge, not the freezer, the fridge. I then glued this bridge on to a restoration with that same batch of glue around June 2009 and after 11 month of being strung to full pitch and played daily it has not budged and I remain confident that it won't. The last bit of that batch is still in my fridge and in a pinch I would use it again and just might to prove a point because after more than 2 years it is still firm and clear, does not smell, and there is no sign of any mold or other macrobiotic activity to the naked eye.



Anyhow Gabe I am certain that if you persevere you will be richly rewarded for you efforts. It's not so much about the science than it is the feel, so grab your year old batch, divide it up, and start experimenting with heat and water and measuring the run from the stick by eye for viscosity. You don't need scales or a thermometer however I do have a pin point on the body of my warmer to indicate 140 -145f for general use and if I need it hotter I just turn it up a bit. Do some test joints and then some failure experiments. Examine if when torn apart in 24hours the joint has wood from it's mating component still attached, if it does then you know the glue is as strong as it needs to be for anything.

Cheers

Kim

HHG does take both skill and knowledge. It isn't rocket science though. I can quite honestly say that I've never measured the quantities of either liquid or solid. Even the correct temperature is overstated IMO - it's not like it suddenly fails if you are out by a few degrees. For non critical joints I've used HHG that has been in the pot for 3 days and I haven't experienced any failures. I glue bridges on with HHG and finger pressure - no clamps and I'm still waiting for one of them to fail. I'm not the only one who uses that method either, I learned the technique from someone who has been doing the same for 30 years.

Careful there Kim!
I wouldn't get to close to that picture, that bridge could pop off any minute and take out your eye!
And I would tune it at least a half step flat if I were you.

Joe

Gotta throw in my 2cents. I was a little worried about using HHG but turned out not to be that difficult. Here's what I do.

I mix my HHG in 2 oz squeeze bottles. I pour the granules in and then add distilled water to just cover. Throw it in the fridge (I've got one of those mini-fridges in the shop) and it is ready the next day. I put a stainless bolt in the bottle to add a little weight so it will float upright in the water bath.

I use one of those little crock pots to heat the water for the glue. I pour the water in a plastic measuring cup and heat it in the microwave (got a little one of those in the shop too; bought it to heat water for glue) then dump it in the crock pot with the cold glue. Glue is ready in about 10 or 15 min. This way if I have an hour in the shop I can be ready to glue by the time I get surfaces freshened and everything prepared.

Glue goes back in the fridge when I'm done. Bottle never lasts long enough to go bad and usually gets reheated less than 10 times before its gone.

If you're getting boogers when trying to clean the squeeze out, stop and wait a few more minutes, it hasn't gelled enough. 10 minutes seems to be a reasonable time frame for me.

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Let's face it: real men use hot hide glue. Anyone who doesn't is a wuss, and probably also can't get a chisel sharp without a honing guide, doesn't know how to care for a Japanese water stone, drives a Saturn, and buys Lie-Nielsen planes because he's afraid to fettle an old Stanley! The OP is right to feel inadequate. He probably shouldn't even show his face here until he has his glue chops together. Go hang on the girly guitar forum!

_________________
Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Howard-
Thanks!
You said what I should have said, instead of getting all serious and 'fussed up'!


Cheers
John
".....now, where did I put that Kool-Aid with the hide glue in it?....."

A squeeze bottle is easier and faster for braces, thicker leaves more open time and doesn't run everywhere.
I would be inclined to make a comment à la Howard's…
Why would you want to stick with something you're not comfortable with, unless you're afraid of the HHG Swat Team? 100,000's of guitars have had bridges glued with PVA glues and the great, great majority are fine. Unless you plan to cook your guitar in a car, or in the full Arizona sun, I think you'll be fine with LMI white, TB1, or even Elmer's white glue.

_________________
Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

They have a SWAT team?!? And a girly luthier's forum - where do I sign up? I'm pretty tired of y'all's avatars, and it would be nice to get wood without having to wait for the swap meets...

_________________
Gabriel Regalbuto
Carlsbad, California
Freedom 35!

Shoot, Howard! You just described me to a T.

Mike

_________________
Mike Lindstrom

Philippo, I know nothing of fish glue.
However epoxy will release with heat, a little higher than a PVA glue. HHG will not release with heat alone, or not before the wood chars, it needs moisture in the joint. PVA glues like TB1 creep at a relatively low temp. I do not know for LMI white, and it seems Gorilla wood glue is much more resistant than TB1 to cold creep and heat.

_________________
Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

Have found no need to use on wood except when veneering/laminating
Use extensively on other substrates: metal, fiber composities, etc when CA is not an option

Mix thoroughly in correct proportions
Avoid skin contact or breathing fumes from hardener
Ensure high surface energy on gluing surfaces
Treat like any other glue

As a general rule, I think epoxy gets used all kinds of places where CA would be a better choice. You do have to put in some serious speed-clamping practice if you want to get the most out of CA, though!

_________________
Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services