Official Luthiers Forum!

It occurred to me that we have replaced our classifieds section banner with the Newport banner and there are probably a lot of new folks that are not aware we have a classifieds section.

Until we replace our banner info can be found here

http://luthiersforum.com/forum/subscribe.php

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

Im sure that can be done, I have no doubt. Can "I" do it with my meager
knowledge of this software? Not a chance.

We actually shelled out a pretty penny to have the classifieds program, or add on, what ever you want to call it written. It has a annual reminder of expiration, Auto paypal for signing up, and it automatically changes the users properties to allow them in.

Way freakin over my head.

It has been functional for over two years now and we still have not recouped the cost of development.
I think we could tweak it but we first need to pay for the original cost.

One thing that we have been batting around is to have one of the three boxes (Auction, Deals and Tools) up top rotate with different posted ads in the classifieds.
That would be super cool but again, the initial investment needs to be paid for first.

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

You 'hit the nail on the head' with that, Filippo.
Paying a fee to browse 'for sale' ads is something I won't do.
I've seen a lot of 'Classified/ForSale' areas on different forums (ham radio, audiophile) but this is the only place I've seen where you have to 'pay to look'. But it may be more common than I think.
My guess is that Lance/Brock would have made more money with a free classifieds section and an 'honor system' for kickbacks from sellers, but what do I know?

Cheers
John

And so the debate rages on.

The entire concept for making the classifieds section members only was to keep our sponsors safe from poachers.
This makes it less desirable for MrTonewood203 to come in and start selling stuff.

Honor system, if we would have gone that route we would have caught just as much if not MORE grief.
Look at how hard it is to keep our dialog free of controversial issues, and that is all based on the honor system "be nice"

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

For what its worth, I just sent a note off to our programmers asking for a quote to have the
classifieds section open to view for all "registered members" yet still a sub based system for posting and selling.


Filippo, thanks for the info, by the way dont you run an auto forum?
Id love to visit it.

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

Come on guys... it's $11 a freakin YEAR! That's less than 92 cents a month. Every registered member that buys wood/luthier supplies should pony up, if for no other reason than to support the forum. Then it wouldn't be an issue.

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Jim Womack

"Be thankful we're not getting all the government we're paying for. "
Will Rogers

I have a completely different point of view.
The valuable things on a forum are the posts - without them there is no forum.
When Alan Carruth or Tony Karol (or many others here) sit down and compose an answer to a question, or when somebody goes to the trouble of making a video or organizing a tutorial with pictures, they're giving a gift of knowledge to the rest of us. To ask them to pay to contribute those posts would be an affront.
Who is 'the community'?
Who is 'its people'?
And who should be beholden to who?

John

I'd say just leave it like it is.

Aside from sponsor competition, I think the community is just too small and frugal to support a large buying and selling section anyways. I doubt a whole lot more people would put things up for sale even if viewing was free, so from point of view of the management, the curiosity of non-sellers to get in and see what's there brings in more money than would otherwise be had.

Sorry Filippo, but I must argue against making the whole forum pay-to-post. Freedom is the joy of the internet, and I for one would go somewhere else simply out of spite. I don't mind "donating" $11 a year to support the forum and get the added bonus of classifieds access, but it must be entirely voluntary or I would never have cared enough to do it in the first place.

And one more thing. If we sped up the pace of classifieds by giving free viewing access, then the swap-a-palooza would become proportionately smaller (possibly even dead), and it's just too much fun Plus it brings in money from the sellers too.

If you will all remember, the REASON we put the pay system in place to begin with was to help eliminate the problem of "quasi pro vendors" sellilng in the classified area for pennies vs. our traditional vendors who are selling via the proper sponsorship channels. We have run into these problems in the past, and the middle ground was to charge a very nominal fee to both buyers and sellers. This was the middle ground to allow things to be bought and sold through the forum but (mostly) negate the problem of inequity.

We all debated this to death early on, and this was our agreed upon solution. It really isn't about the .99 per month.

I agree it isn't perfect, but it is better than the alternatives.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

I'm with Jim as he said it's only $11 a year it is hardly enough to hurt anyones pocket. I for one am glad to pay, if for no other reason than to support the forum and those running it everything costs and we get the benefits leave it as it is. That's my 2 cents worth now i'll get of my soap box and go home.

Again I say.... this was the agreed upon solution. I recognize it si not pefect. The forum has a short memory, but for years we didn't do this at all because of this issue (and we are not worrying over nothing, we have had problems with issues like this in the past and don't want to invite more problems).

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

I echo Todd's sentiments and would surely join if the section was opened up for all to see.

I totally appreciate your comments and agree with you. (In fact I am going to get that book). I completely agree that a community is the collective participation of all members. It is much more than just the framework of the organization.

With regards to the is classifieds section, we are not oppossed to improving it -- not at all. I understand the gripe about it being pay to view and pay to post. I am not thrilled with that idea either. For years we didn't have a classifieds section because we couldn't figure this puzzle out, and after a long debate we all arrived at the consensus that SOME classifieds are was better than NO classifieds area. We all agreed that the solution wasn't optimal, but it was BETTER than what we had.

And now that the discussion has resurfaced I am yet to see an idea that addresses the original concern (quasi vendors sellling in the classifieds area while legit sponsors pay a much higher fee. It makes them question the value of sponsorship). The only "fix" outside of the way we are doing it now (as I see it) is heavy policing of the classifieds area, and that really isn't practical. The forum has gotten so big that it hard for Lance and I to be everywhere.

I also know that it is easy to believe that we are afraid of a boogie man that doesn't exist. But this isn't the case. We have had problems with this in the past (I can name names but I won't) and this can really cause some serious issues -- both amongst our legitimate sponsors and our members.

The paid subscriptions of the classifies is really not about it being a revenue generator for the forum. It's about heading off a problem before it exists. We tried to make it as inexpensive as possible to not be prohibitive to anyone who wanted to participate.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Personally I have no problem with paying for the classifieds section. I have gained so much knowledge from this site it is unbelievable. I was a lurker for about a year before I even joined. This is the only place on the forum that requires payment and I am a happy paying member.

That said. I agree with the others that if you could browse for free and pay to sell you would have much more participation both from buyers and sellers.

If the problem is control. Set it up like you have it now, sellers pay but make it free to browse. But only allow sellers to post. Buyers would have to PM the seller to discuss terms, shipping payment etc. When sold the seller would either delete the item or reply that it has been sold. There really isn't anything the buyer needs to post that can't be done in a PM. You would control who is able to sell and keep out "the riff raff"

Something else you might consider, since the site has gotten so big, is to appoint a couple of volunteer moderators with only the power to delete unwanted posts.

It has been said many times already but thanks for all the work you guys put into the site.

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Tim

The problem with this idea is we would have to make it much more expensive to sell in the classifieds area to keep the inequity problem down.

The issue is there are several people out there who have access to large amounts of wood (and other supplies) and if we charge $10, $20, $50, or even $100 to sell in the classifieds area they could come in, and sell stuff forever and never become an official sponsor of the forum. At the same time, the folks who have been our long time commercial supporters begin to question the value of sponsorship when they see others moving significant amounts of product for practically nothing.

From my POV the way to think about the solution to this problem is to try to take the perspective of all of the players -- the community member, the sponsor, Lance and I, etc. This is the way Lance and I roll these issues over and over and we have not been able to find a better solution than the one we have.

Again, I am open to suggestions. I admit, this is a tough nut to crack. I *GET* what you want, but that is going to bring out some unintended (and undesirable) consequences.

(BTW, we have been talking about moderators. We are fully on board with that idea and working on a strategy for that.)

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

As a newer member I will say that when I joined the OLF I was thinking I'll gladly pay the $12 for rights to see the classified section. Then after paying the money I was so disappointed because there really wasn't much activity there. Over time and value gained from the rest of the forum I was satisfied "donating" my money but the "pay just to get into classified section experience" I kinda felt taken.

I think the first couple of month's I looked daily but soon after that I quit looking but maybe a couple of times a month and that was only after someone posted in the general forum that they had something for sell in the classifieds.

Personally I'll gladly re-up the donation when the time comes but not for the reason to gain access to the classifieds.

Dennis

If the buyers were at least able to read the listing title, and then to see pictures and details would require the membership, that would be a good teaser to get people interested.

Personally I have been hesitant to pay to find out that there is little activity, but if I browsed and saw something interesting, I would pay to find out more.

A little off topic, but perhaps as a source of income for the forum a "gold" membership could be offered that would allow for a bio page, links to a website, and classified rights. For the many builders who link to their website, this is likely a good source of hits to the site, and the link from this popular site has value in search engine ranking.

I would be willing to pay $20-25 a year for a good bio page, with links and pictures, and perks like classified use.

Thanks for making the forum what it is, a huge help, very easy to use and read.
Rob

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Well, I paid to look, and I have bought several things at bargain prices. I look there every time there is a new post in that forum. I have yet to sell anything there, but have more than made my money back in good stuff at good prices. Is everyone here a Scot? I am, but still thought it would be worth looking at bargains. Everything's not a bargain, but many are.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Yeah. I understand this POV. But I sort of cringe at words like "taken". Again, the point of the funds was not to create a way to raise funds for the OLF as much as it is a way to eliminate an unintended conflict amongst our advertisers.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Sorry Brock,

I didn't mean to imply anyone had done anything on purpose. I guess really really disappointed would have been a better choice of words but the truth is I had thought I was going to be able to get to something really great since this was the only area I had to pay to gain access. After paying I thought that wasn't worth it.

That of course was my first impression about " The Classified section"

I really don't remember if that was how it was presented ( must pay to get into the classifieds) or if it was something that I did in my own mind

When swapalooza came around that is another story. That is when I realized joining really is worth paying the money. I guess just a clearer definition of what is behind the door before putting out the money would have made for much different feelings about it was worth.

Now maybe if I had thought that membership and donating to the OLF will give me an added benefit of access vs I need to pay $12 just to get in the classifieds I really would have had a different outlook.

Donating to this forum for all it is and does IS worth it and for less than the price of Pizza

How about free to view, fee to sell, $20 buys you 12 listings a year, no more than 3 a month and that is the annual limit for any member.

Not hard to police as it would soon become pretty obvious if anyone was abusing the system.

Just a though.

Cheer

Kim

Thanks, Kim.
There are a few different workable ideas that could address the concern about sponsors vs interlopers:
1) Make it clear to sponsors that they are paying for the banner ads, not some supposed exclusive access to the membership (as on other forums). Are the sponsors filling up the classifieds with their advertising now?
2) Make it a matter of policy that non-sponsor commercial vendors are not allowed to advertise in the classifieds; put # of ad limits in place as Kim suggests, depend on the members to report offenders (the same way offensive posts/ads are reported now...)
3) Look around at other websites/forums and see how they handle this issue..
etc etc..

However, the decision has been made, and several hundred members have paid for classified access, so there's not much way to turn back the clock on this one.

Making a universal rule that no "For Sale' or 'Auction' ads are allowed except in the Classified Area would be a step in the right direction.

Cheers
John

There is a new year coming in a little over 5 months.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

This "fear" of the abuser reminds me of gun control issues. In order to cut down on gun crime, poiticians pass laws that make guns illegal. Problem is, u disarm the honest folks while the dishonest folks will still arm themselves and commit crimes with them none the less (and at much less risk to themselves since honest folks are now disarmed). The real answer has always been to enforce the existing rules. Put a moderator in that forum, an enforcer, and open it to viewers for free. Don't "punish" the masses for the sake of a few bad apples. I know this works, I've seen it elsewheres.

Btw, please ignore that poitical analogy... Was the best I could come up with.

Some forums I'm aware of handle the issue by only allowing forum members with a certain minimum number of posts (say 50) to open a thread in the classified section. That way nobody can quickly sign up only to sell loads of stuff in the classified section, but has to be an established forum member.
Of course there's still room for abuse like spamming 50 posts in existing threads, and then posting a classified ad...but I don't think any serious businessman would gamble with his reputation by indulging in such childish behavior.

Just wanted to throw it out as another option...I'm a happy classified subscriber and have bought and sold some stuff there.

cheers, Christian