Official Luthiers Forum!

Hi I am applying to several guitar building schools after losing my teaching position. I would like to know if this is a good field to get in to. Will I be able to make a living making and repairing guitars. It is a major decision and I could use some help. Thank you

You need to define 'a living' to get a sensible answer, I think.

When I say making a living doing it, I mean to have it as my only source of income and being able to support a family with that income from the industry.

I can't say that you will or won't but I can tell you the learning curve is not a short one. It took me about 8 years to become a professional at this. Expect to spend at least 2 years or more to begin to learn this trade. It doesn't happen overnight. Like all trades , you need to pay your dues so to speak. Even with taking a class or school , it isn't a realistic expectation to come out of the class and be ready to make a living.
It takes years to build a reputation and get known. Also learning the specialties of the trade takes a while. You get out of it what you put into it.

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Non-professional opinion here... From what I've seen, any time you want to independently make a living doing what other people enjoy as a hobby, you really need to:
1. Have top-notch skills and knowledge, and a good head for business
2. Stay out of debt (even school debt) and have a realistic and sustainable business plan just to survive, thrive if you're at the right place/right time/right people.

If you're single with no family to take care of, you can probably have a pretty low threshold for surviving/thriving.

_________________
______________________________
Jonathan Kendall, Siloam Springs AR

I wouldn't want to put a percentile on it, but I think you'd find the majority of builders, even some of the very very good ones, do it outside of their meat and potatoes day job. There are of course the exceptions, but that's what proves the rule. Of the dozen or so builders I know personally, including myself, only three make their living from it.

You need to do some 'back of the envelope' calculations, I think, so that you can put some realistic numbers into your thinking.

How important is security to you? People who choose teaching as a career are usually quite far from luthiers in their risk tolerance. The pro luthiers I've met seem to share a lot of attitudes with pro musicians. Is this 'you'?
How much can you earn as a qualified (school?) teacher? Do your teaching jobs include pension plan and health-care benefits? Job security? How important are those things to you and your family? Do you enjoy teaching? How good are you at teaching? How good are you at woodworking and guitar building? Do you have a pile of money to invest in further education & training, setting up a business, etc., or are you planning on borrowing money to follow the luthier path?

My advice is to keep teaching (you may have to move to an area with more jobs) and develop your luthier skills during the summer holidays and spare time. (If you are going to be any good as a teacher, you will have pretty long days during the school year & not much spare time.) When you hear an overwhelming chorus of recommendations that you should 'turn pro' in the luthier game, then consider a career change.

Cheers
John

PS- I'm a retired very professional high-school teacher and very amateur guitar builder.

I can give advise from the perspective of an independent custom woodworker, not from a lutherie background. Some good advise already given, stay out of debt, and assess your personality and tolerance for risk, as stated, typically teachers are a very financially prudent bunch, unlike musicians and we small shop woodworkers.

The real thing to look at beyond all the predictable costs, school, tools, website, advertising is the market analysis, exactly what products and services exist in the community, who uses them, what are you doing differently from the established competitors to get a piece of that pie.

A simple "back of the envelope" way that I like to asses ideas with is to estimate the number of potential customers, how much will they spend on you how often, and what percentage of the group needs to use your services for you to make a living.

So if you have 100 musicians in your area that are qualified, and your average ticket(sale) for repairs is $250, it looks grim. Of the qualified customers, only expect a small percentage to use your services, maybe you can get 10-15% of the market with word of mouth.

I think having a teaching background, you could help people build kits, it is an angle that will likely be a service that others are not offering.
Best of luck, do your homework on the market analysis and you should be able to answer the question accurately.
Rob

_________________
http://shastaguitar.com/
http://www.kalimbakit.com/
http://www.youtube.com/user/comfyfootgr ... ature=mhee
http://www.facebook.com/robert.renick.7

The short answer, from all the luthiers I've spoken to (and I have a lot of clients), is that you'll be keeping your day job for a very long time before (if ever) lutherie can pay your bills. I think people would be surprised at some of the high-end luthiers who still have/need day jobs. The comparison to professional music is apt both in profit potential and security.

_________________
Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

In the cold light of day I'd have to say that you would be taking a big risk. I personally know five people who went through well established Lutherie schools here in the UK. The courses were 3 years. Move on many years and not one of them is involved in making or repairing instruments. They gave up after finding it extremely difficult just paying the bills.
That doesn't mean to say that it's impossible. That's clearly not the case because some people do have a full time living making Guitars. It's just that the odds are against it. Too many Luthiers, too few clients. It's also true that it takes years to gain a reputation - 8 or 10 years would be more the norm. The trouble is that throughout those 8 or 10 years your gross income could be very low.

Normally, the answer is don't quit your day job. In your case, the answer is no. Sorry to be blunt, but it comes from 30+ years of experience in this "industry".
Be aware that everything is stacked against you. Large, production facilities have the where-with-all to advertise, promote (read give away), cut every corner, and otherwise push the small builder out of the business. Pac-rim instruments flood the market and prospective buyers are conned into believing they have bought something in the "fine" instrument range.
The economy is very bad for a small builder. Players are keeping what they have, and can't afford anything else (wealthy excluded of course). Ten years ago I would have said go for it, but keep your day job. I made a respectable living at it till the bottom fell out of the economy.
Generally speaking, repair is the bread and butter of the business. That said, there are two problems with that. One, you have to have a reputation to be a repairperson, and two, generally builders don't make great repairpersons and vice versa.
You may ask, why am I still in this business. One, I get my pittance from the govment every month which keeps me barely above the poverty line, and two, It's turned back to a hobby, and I could give a hoot whether I sell any or not. My wife and I saw this coming years ago and well, I stocked up on everything I need.
Cat food isn't so bad either, and if you mix it with mayo...

It depends why you want to do this for a living. Luthiery isn't one of those field like law or medicine where people do it for the money. If you have no passion towards this field or skills that are confirmed by others, then I would not do this full time. If you have a real passion for this then this would be a hobby at first.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

I would agree - stay in teaching. I am another retired professional teacher - and have retired young enough to pick up an interesting hobby. If you love teaching, consider a masters degree in another area of certification. I originally was an unemployed certified history teacher who went back to school in (then) industrial arts (now) technology education.

The benefits I have in retirement are full access to health benefits, but also full access to machine shop tools, cnc equipment, educational pricing on CAD/CAM, and just about anything else I wish to use. Plus, next year I am volunteering to help a couple kids build guitars. Can't beat that deal.

_________________
Ken Bremer
Madison, Wisconsin
http://www.bremerguitar.blogspot.com