Official Luthiers Forum!

It's 4AM I thought I sneak in a ask a couple questions while no one was looking
1. on a Fox type bender could you bend both sides at the same time if the woods used are easy to bend?
2. Do you think you could remove the blades on your joiner or thickness planer and replace with sandpaper (wrapped not flapped)and use them as sanders? I saw a portable drum sander at woodcraft the other day called a Sand Flee. Looked a little like a joiner bed.

Hi StevieG

One side at a time for the bender.

Although someone did suggest that you can tape your binding to the sides and bend that at the same time as one of the sides.

As for the jointer idea - I like the way you think, but I doubt it would work. For thicknessing I use a Wagner safety planer on a drill press. Works pretty well.

Here's a link: http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/thirdproduc ... T%2DPlaner

Neil

Stevie my friend what Neil said - I'll add that some of us either profile our sides for the back or top prior to bending. If pre-profiled bending two sides in a stack would produce two rights or two lefts....

Mind you some of us have produced two rights and two lefts without bending two sides together either.... Also although bending sides is not difficult or very risky when you have your method down until then there is some risk so bending them one at a time lets the heat, steam, work better for us.

The Sand flee is more of a surface sander than a thickness sander and I doubt that it would serve our purposes very well. You know lots of us would be willing to thickness stuff for you too so usually if you put out an APB for a builder in your area to lend a hand the OLF is known to be the friendliest place in this respect.

Can't comment on the jointer idea, I have no experience with jointers.

Regarding bending too sides at once, some big shops do it, but not with our regular rigs (i.e.: the standard heating blanket). You would need to build a larger bender that would use two blankets since the usual ones are only wide enough for one side. Plus you'll be screwed anyway as soon as you will want to make a cutaway!

Although the idea seems clever at first, jointers and planers spin waaaaaaaay too fast to be used as a drum sander. 8000-10000 RPM for planer/jointer versus roughly 1500 RPM, sometime even less, for a drum sander. Oh, and the Sand-Flee is of no use for making guitars.

_________________
Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

Hey Guys
Thanks for the replies.
I have the Wagner and have used it. It's a neat little tool.
When bending profiled side you make a right or left side by placing the straight side (top) to the left or the right on the bender. Right? you could do this in your stack slat in between with a blanket top and bottom . From what I have read some people use two blankets any way. Is there more to it than this?
I realize the speed problems on the planers. Dependin on the type of motor and drive maybe use a router speed controller or change pulley or sprocket ratios. Another problem with the planer/sander idea is no way to vary the feed rate. And how in the heck are you goin to hold the sand paper on the cutter/drum?
I'm not ready to tear into my old delta planer even though it's setting here idle, having been replaced with a DW735. Besides I have a new Griz. 18" open end drum sander setting over in the corner still in the crate waiting to be put together. I guess this was just food for thought......Junk food huh?
By the way for the 700 dollars the Flee cost I could buy a life time supply scrapers and sand paper.
Steve

Any body have a Foley-Belsaw planer?

This a Quote from from the accessories section of the owners manual
.

Tri-Sand Abrasive Surfacing System
You'll get double duty from your Foley-Belsaw Planer when
you install the TRI-SAND Abrasive Surfacing System. Your
planer will become a precision power feed abrasive surfacer
at fraction of the cost of other machines or even kits now available.
The exclusive TRI-SAND system fits right on the cutter head
of your planer. There's no need to remove the cutter head with
the TRI-SAND. Our unique speed gibs exchange with standard
planer gibs for quick and easy changes from thickness planing
or molding to abrasive surfacing. No.4500540

May be it wasn't atotally stupid idea. By the way they list the cutter speed as 4500 rpm

Steve

Steve, If I'm reading you right, your asking about stacking two side one on top of the other and bending??

When you make you make a bending form, you need to factor in all the things in your "sandwich." Then form is sized to make the side fit the mold. If stacked two sides, the inside one would be correct, but the outside one would be slightly oversize. Hope that makes sense.

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Rob

Steve, the problem for us with planers is the thinness of the stock we use. The blades are striking the wood which can cause the wood to fracture or in the case of figured woods, tearout. For what we do, a thickness sander is a better choice. If you are of the mind, you can make one. ShopNotes has plans for a 12" with manual feed that could easily be redesigned to 18".

And then there is always Craigslist and word of mouth.

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Aoibeann

Not sure I understand the question Stevie but what I do is pre-profile the back side of the sides only leaving the front edge (for the top of the guitar) of the sides flat. I keep this flat/straight edge toward me when in the bender and also check to see that it's about the same distance from the edge of the stack at both ends. My blanket has a border of about 1/2" that has no heating elements so I inset the wood beyond the border so as to be sure that it heats up more evenly.

You will find that many of us use different stacks and one, two blankets and sometimes some bulbs too. Just be sure to not use any of those Al Gore light bulbs...

My stack looks like this from top to bttm:

Spring steel slat
blanket
stainless steel slat
wood
stainless steel slat

The third slat, the spring steel one is optional but I use it to help direct the heat of the blanket downward and so that I am not pressing the spring loaded cauls of the bender into and across the blankets heating elements. Since spring steel will spring back with much more resolve I keep that one spring steel slat on top of the stack so when removing the bent side from the bender the force of the spring steel slat now with nothing holding it back won't crack my bent side. Stainless slats are whimper and not so much of a problem under the bent side.

Side bending is not difficult but a mistake can cost you some $$ so using a proven method, anyone's proven method is advisable over trying to reinvent the wheel IMHO.

Ya Steve

me gotts a Foley Bell saw sittin in me drive way...last running 4 years ago
so that translates to 3 winters of rust.

Its yours if you want it. Just come and pic it up.


blessings
be
Padma

_________________
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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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Hey Rob
Thanks for the reply. First let me say I am not going to do this. Just a thought I had at 4 in the morning. I agree to get a perfect side your form should made as you said. I agree but I don't know for sure since I have never bent a side or put one in a mold. In reality it may be that being a little over size or a little undersize is better. I'll find out for my self eventually. What do you think would happen if you put my slightly oversized side in a mold? I guess it would be the thickness of a slat plus the thickness of the side too big. Would not the mold and the spreaders handle this? Maybe it would be better if it was the other way around with the odd sized side being smaller. Beats me. I figured there would be problems bending two sides at once but really didn't think it would be fitting the mold.I am counting on the mold to determine the final shape of my guitar.
Steve

No thanks The
I have one thats been setting for about the same amount of time. It was given to me also. I replaced all the sprockets and chains on the drive but have never used it. I do keep it out of the rain though. If I ever need the horse power I'll fire it up.
By the way nice first name.."The" easy to remember.
Steve

Hey Lillian
No I'm not talking about getting a planer but converting one to be a sander.. If you read one of my earlier post in this thread you will see I have already bought a drum sander....

Hesh
Believe me I don't intend on reinventing the wheel. I have been reading every thing I can find find on building guitars. I have watched all the u-tubes too. When I bend it will be by the book. If I read your post right you keep the top/straight/flat /whatever side towards you for both bends. Towards you meaning the same side of the bender. I'm glad you told me I was under the impression the srtaight/top edge went to one side of the bender for one bend and to the other side of the bender for the other. I'll have to watch John Hall's video again, may be the twenth time...

thank for all help. I've been all over the net researching my build. The OLF is the only forum I've registered on. My opinion the best.


sorry about two unrelated topics on one thread What do you expect from a new guy?

Steve

Sorry to keep flogging a dead horse. But Todd, Why do you say the inner side of the stack would be "severely overbent"? And yea I want a Dread. not one of them "girl guitars".....Just kiddin...I have already started my mold for an L-00 for number 3 of course I have to build no. 1 and 2 first..


Steve

Well Steve,

"Girl guitars" ...remind me to not let you play me OOO-17 hog.


blessings
Padma

_________________
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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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padma
I guess you are right that was probably an OOOP's But you know those little guitars make us fat guys look fatter.....
Maybe I should build a Jumbo....

Steve

Steve...

your forgetting what Yoda taught us...

"size don't matter"


blessings

_________________
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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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Yeah - flat side toward me and then when I do the other side I turn the bender around and again keep the flat side toward me - this produces a right and a left side - nice thing to have on a guitar...

Are you building your own bender? Just build it double width and then you can bend both sides at once.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Todd
I hope I can get have my say without offending you. I mean no disrespect....is that really a word?...
I actually have great respect for you and your contributations to the OLF? I am sure you have bent many sides. I have never seen one bent. You are the expert. I am a hillbilly from West by God Virginia. I am a Draftsman/Designer with over 30 years experience working in an engineering environment. Usually I'm building compressor stations. Not really building but I do the layout and mechanical design drawings. I tell you this because you don't know me or any thing about me. I have read about your qualifications on a couple of other threads..

I have never posted on any forum but this..none. I have enjoyed reading this forum for several months. So much I desided to join in. I posted my first questions in this thread. The subject of this thread said they were dumb questions. What I was hoping for was a discussion of the problems involved and possible cures. I never said I intended to bend two sides at once or build a sander. I have a thickness sander and this the third time I have stated that.
What I seam to be getting don't try, never going to work replies Why don't you try craigs list....


"temp differentials at interface, more moisture for longer at the interface" aside how does a side between two slats with a blanket below know that it's sister side is above in another package. Yes I know being bent at slightly larger radius. Maybe from the heat? Some people use two blankets so I guess it's not that. Well I'm done trying to defend something I really dont care about. no reply necessary.


Hesh
"turn the bender around" an important pice of information that shouldn't be left off.....


Brock.
during this discussion I thought of that. adouble wide form. I would just build another bender since I have one already..

Steve

Double wide. I should have thought of that! I am from the deep South after all!

BTW, there are no dumb questions, just dumb answers. If u watch closely, you'll note I provide the majority of those.

Filippo
If I remember what my daddy taught me a "Gillespie Bender" always involves the use of alcohol.
Actually he didn't teach me I learned all about it on my own... I don't do that any more...much.