Official Luthiers Forum!

I received a call from a lady friend that is looking for a custom guitar for around $4,000. I'm not yet prepared for an order like that so she started talking about a factory custom where they were asking $4k. but they didn't look that much different than there normal stock. She's looking at the aesthetics, not so much as the construction or sound? I tried to tell her for that budget she should be able to get a handmade really nice sounding guitar with maybe a little abalone. After talking with her, and other experienced players in the past, I'm convinced that,as guitar builders, we may be only a very small percentage of people that can "hear" the difference? It's frustrating when I meet people who hear with their eyes. Clinton

Welcome to the madness Clinton!

It' gonna get worse my friend. I wish I had advice for you but I gave up trying to understand this....'twilight zone' mentality some people have.

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There is no difference between the man that thinks he can....and the man that thinks he cannot.

Fee Waybill....a.k.a. Quay Lewd would perform "White Punks On Dope" wearing 9 inch heels and clear plastic butt pants while playing a guitar shaped like a giant "Q".

Hey....someone had to make that guitar.

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I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic

those figured Koa tops sure are eye catching too.

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"Preoccupation with an effect gives it power and enhances the error"
from "Your Owner's Manual" by Burt Hotchkiss.

You should spend a few minutes on the net with her. I'm sure you'll be able to show her a slew of very gorgeous handmade guitars in that price range. It's intervention time man!

Think this is where its maybe time to help educate - The only way is to help her LEARN the difference. None of us started out with a pre disposed genetically coded knowledge of the differences bwteen good and bad sounds... we have learned them. Sure there are subjective elements as well, but on the whole thats more to do with 'taste' and style than quality... i guess what I mean is that there are thousands of extremely well made and high quality sublime tone machines that Iwould never buy because I dont LIKE the sound - because its does not suit my playing style - yet when other play them, they soudn simply wonderful.

I think you would be doing great customer service if you helped her with this education... that quality and therefore cost (to soem extent) is based on material quality + skill in assembly and knowledge/experience - efficiences of scale...

Help her understand the difference between a standard D42 (nice and bling) v an authentic or vintage D18/28 and why the cost difference - and then on to hand builds and why there advantange AND disadvantages - spreading that knowledge and looking out for her as a customer is a long term investment -I know you said you were not in a position to build a $4000 guitar yet... why not offer to build her one at your price point or 2 in different woods?

I just think this is a great opportunity for you!

I don't have a $4000 guitar...yet, but I can relate first hand to hearing with the eyes. When I bought my first serious acoustic several years ago, I went in to the local store and requested a much hyped-highly advertised name brand model. The guy abruptly told me that I didn't want that guitar. I nearly left as I thought it was a bit rude (and dumb) to treat a customer that way. Plus, what did he know? He told me he didn't even play guitar, he was a paino player.

But, I was curious so I told him I'd hear him out. Long story short, he taught me to forget the slick ads and play the guitar with my ears. I spent four hours in the store's acoustic room that day going back and forth between 3 guitars. I settled on one I hadn't even heard of until that day. And I couldn't be happier. That guitar sounded better to me in a lot of ways and it was even a few hundred bucks cheaper! Lesson learned!!

When playing a guitar, it's more about what i feel and hear more than what i see that counts. This thread reminds me about a guy that wanted me to build him an ugly guitar. He said he liked ugly guitars.

In all fairness to people maybe they don't have the ear. It's like wine. My wife loves wine, wants to stop at every vineyard where ever we are. So I go too. I sit there secretly laughing at people who claim that there are hints of chocolate or overtones of oak... what ever. Give me a good cheap box wine and I am happy as a clam

Same with guitars unfortunately for us. You can't sell a guitar to some hipster kid who's favorite guitarist plays a Takimine or a Yamaha or a <name cheap guitar here> guitar. They want what looks right first and in most cases at least is playable and plays in tune. Tone is always an after thought and in many cases is really not all that important.

Yep, been there done that. I used to think an ovation was the best guitar out there. The only reason was because I didn't have to retune if environments changed. I thought the sound was just fine. It wasn't until many years later when I started playing with much better guitarists that constantly teased me about my ovation. Until the next guitar I went into a guitar store and played every guitar in there, and found I liked a tacoma over a larivee, or any other guitar in that store. (this place didn't have many high end guitars). After that guitar, I started moving up to higher end guitars, including Santa Cruz. Then I started building, as even the Santa Cruz didn't sound that good to my ear. Strange how that happens! It was a slow move for me, so I'm guessing for so many guitarists out there it will be a slow move too. Just educate as much as you can and hope it takes! I'd offer to build her a guitar, or have her play one of your nicer guitars and explain what makes it sound so nice. Good luck!

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Tracy
http://www.luthiersuppliers.com

This is my opinion but really....I think this has less to do with the ear and more to do with perception.

Countless times...I've spent time....attempting to explain the differences (benefits) of custom made instruments to folks. ALMOST always, atleast in the instances where I don't have a guitar handy to let them play, it ends up being a pervasive public perception that a factory made instrument HAS TO BE better.....they've been making them for SOOOOOO LONG..... "I'd feel better giving that kind of money to Martin.." or Taylor, or (insert brand). All the explanations in the world about how factories work and how they don't get it right most of the time doesn't move the listener.

The opposite end of that spectrum is the following: "I'd love to own that guitar but why would anyone pay that much money for a guitar".

Granted - Obviously I'm not talking to the right folks. And yes....the custom made guitar buyer probably represents less than 1 percent of the total guitar buying market! But Geeeeezzzzzz.....

This is why I make what I want to make and everyone else can shop at Guitar Center!

Chris

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There is no difference between the man that thinks he can....and the man that thinks he cannot.

You just know someone somewhere's saying, "Wow, that's a great picture of dad"!

As for the $4000 custom guitar? I do 'em all the time, but it takes education for a customer to understand why a guitar off this forum can be more desirable than an off the rack one...it comes down to, "if you have to have it explained more than once, you most likely haven't arrived at the spot where you need it"...

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http://www.presnallguitars.com

Perception certainly is learned. It takes time, focus, and intent helps too for your brain to learn to recognize relevant differences between things. In a past job, I had to learn to recognize weeds. At first, I knew the differences and could list them, but unless I was right on top of them, I was just guessing. After a few years, I was able to accurately identify weed populations at highway speeds. I couldn't quantify it. I couldn't tell others what made me recognize a field as being full of one plant or another, but my brain had learned to recognize the differences.

Now as a school teacher, I see the same thing in my students. It's really amazing to watch as students develop an awareness of what differences matter. Sometimes it happens over night. One day they're struggling, and the next, they've got it.

I assume guitars are the same way, both visually and sonicly. My first guitar was the best sounding and looking guitar I'd ever seen. Now, not so much. We learn to see and hear.

But to the OP, as others have said why not offer to build her a good guitar? You may not be comfortable charging that kind of money for your work, but that's an opportunity for her to get an incredible deal on a custom handmade guitar. She can be your patron.

Mike

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Mike Lindstrom

Some very good responses here. Ok, I'll attempt to show (teach) her some of the sound and construction qualities she should be looking for. I pointed her towards quite of few of the members websites so be on the lookout ! Really, she's a nice gal. Clinton

"This thread reminds me about a guy that wanted me to build him an ugly guitar. He said he liked ugly guitars."

Never really planned to sell a guitar, but that guy might like to come by my workshop.

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George :-)