Official Luthiers Forum!

I'm really getting very frustrated with instrument making!
I've made one guitar wihich is playable, though the top has sunk.
I've made four mandolins which have all been fine.
The last two guitars have both sunk while waiting to be sprayed so I can't put the bridges on.
Last evening I planed and sanded a fingerboard blank ready to cut the fret slots and today it is bent across its width like a banana.
I thought I'd sorted the humidity. It has been between 40 and 45% for the last month (read on two different hygrometers).
I really feel like selling up my tools and equipment.
Is it just me or have others gone through this?

I haven't experienced your specific problems but I can relate.

Personally, I'd give it a rest and come back to it when you're not so mad or upset with it - which may take some time.

Kevin Looker

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I'm not a luthier.
I'm just a guy who builds guitars in his basement.
It's better than playing golf.

where did you buy your wood ? I have found more problems come from wood selection than anything. Know wood and what to buy and how to store it is most important. Tops sinking are often a RH match to the time of glue up. If I glue up a top during the summer I will run the RH down to the mid 30%.
More problems are related to a high rh to a low RH than low to hi. Don't give up yet . If you can make a mando you can build guitars

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Most of my wood in the past came from stew mac or LMI, but it has become too expensive to ship to England and pay taxes, so my most recent has been from Madinter in Madrid.

Sounds to me like Gods tellin ya , STAY on the dark side !
besides we have better beer !

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The Shallower the depth of the stream , The Louder the Babble !
The Taking Of Offense Is the Life Course Of The Stupid One !
Wanna Leave a Better Planet for our Kids? How about Working on BETTER KIDS for our Planet !
Forgiveness is the ability to accept an apology that you will probably NEVER GET
The truth will set you free , But FIRST, it will probably Piss you Off !
Creativity is allowing yourself to make Mistakes, Art is knowing which ones to Keep !
The Saddest thing anyone can do , is push a Loyal Person to the point that they Dont Care Anymore
Never met a STRONG person who had an EASY past !
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The only time I bought from Madinter (about 6 years ago-shipping these days is waaay too much) the wood I received was very nice but not at all seasoned and, if I recall, not even completely dry. But then again I did get a set of mad rosewood with gorgeous webbing for $100 and a couple of really nice euro tops for around $60 each IIRC. It all needed time.

Hello o.p.
I'm just down the road in Rainford, it's a small world eh ?
Is your workshop in your garage, if so keep your work in a north facing room in your house 'cause it's been pretty sweaty round here recently !
For wood and that try http://www.guitartonewoods4luthiers.co.uk/ he's a top guy you'll have your delivery the next day.
Don't give up yer pie eater !

Here is my method for making sure the top and back wood is in equilibrium. This works just as well as using a moisture meter, and it costs nothing.
Lay a piece on a flat surface, with the upper side exposed to the air. If the wood becomes concave on top, it is losing moisture on that side, which means it was wetter than equilibrium with the air. Flip it over, and allow it to curl the other way. Continue this process until it stops curling....then it is in equilibrium with the air.
Stack the wood with dry sticks between each piece, and put a fan on it for a few days before building. You don't need a lot of circulation; I generally use a 20" box fan on the lowest speed setting. Warm up the top and back just before gluing the bracing on. 120 degrees F. is plenty.
Don't give up!!

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John

Well,
Not to be dismissive of your woes, but to count the number of builds in your post, being seven as I count them, are you really expecting to not encounter obstacles? Really, it's only going to get more annoying until you can stick it out til it becomes more satisfying. I think it would be fair to say, as a generalization, that most everybody here will/has run into a countless number of problems that you can't even imagine exist...hence the existence of this forum in the first place. It's not easy, in fact it's really very difficult, to build great instruments. Are you packing up so soon? Why be discouraged? Forge ahead, and keep your eyes to the future...

I seem to remember another post on the forum where it was mentioned about wood coming from Madinter being fresh cut and unseasoned.
That could explain your problems.
It's OK if you are buying for stock, and storing properly for a good length of time, but not prudent to use wood like that straight off.
Nice to see a thumbs up for http://www.guitartonewoods4luthiers.co.uk/, I've been trying to get some info by email (twice in a month now about Pin taper angles) with no reply yet.
Have you tried Octopus in Turkey - posted prices include postage to UK, 3% charge for PayPal, and no taxes to pay!
I recently bought some EIR fretboards (6 Euros each!) and a classical top, and they seemed fine.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Everyone makes a little firewood along the way. Don't be so hard on yourself! I know it's frustrating, but step away for a bit and when you're head is clear and you're feeling up for a challenge, come on back! At the end of the day, I think the challenge is what keeps me building. You'll never make a perfect guitar, perfection is an illusion.

Trev

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

The world is even smaller, I am in Rainhill !

I have not completed my first build yet but so far so good.

If you want to meet up anytime send me a private message

Regards

John

I'm pretty happy with what I've built so far from a construction point of view. It's really the problem of the wood bending after the guitar is ready for spraying and having invested so much time and money to find I can't complete it. I have just retired and can no longer afford to waste money on wood to throw away.
If I make a mistake then OK it's my fault and I can cope with that, but when I've got a guitar in front of me which looks fine, but can't be completed because it has a sunken top it really gets me down. I have tried everything people have suggested (many thanks) to keep the humidity under control, and thought I had. Everything was straight before closing the box!

Beyond the humidity issues mentioned, I think this is why most people radius the top a bit. I do it by "stick sanding" a slight angle into the top. It's not much, but it does "kick" the top out so that it is convex by just a bit. The way I understand it is that if you start flat, and the humidity drops, then your top will sink. If you start convex and the humidity drops, you'll end up flat.

Hope this helps

Trev

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

I radius the tops to 25'. I didn't make that clear.

I built my first acoustic guitar, a Martin OM kit, in the garage in summer in Delaware, before I had the common sense or acquired knowledge to think about humidity. This guitar's back looks like rolling swell on the ocean now (except perhaps in August if I leave it outside ). I may take the back off and flatten and re-brace it someday. I hate the Martin plastic bindings now, and the guitar needs a neck reset too, plus I'm sure it's hideously over-braced compared to what I've learned since. It's a really nice set of Indian Rosewood, though - shame to let it waste away on a less than useable guitar.

It does sound like both aging and acclimation of your wood as well as control over humidity during the building process are the main issues. I became friends with my humidifier and dehumidifier very quickly (and where I live you get about a week in between being dependent on one or the other) and have had everything behave pretty stably since. I also suffer mightily from WAS and so a lot of what I build with has been in the shop for over 5 years now - I wouldn't use anything that came into the shop less than a year ago.

I wish I had the luxury to be involved enough to be frustrated with luthiery mistakes and problems - I've been so tied up with family medical stuff and way too much real job to get anything done at all. Bummer!

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

I love Madinter's quality and prices, but there's no way I'd build with any of their stuff - except for a couple of the EIR fingerboards which are usually decently seasoned due to being sawn and dried in india - without letting it acclimatize in my own shop for at least a year or two - it's far, far too green.