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Koa for a Fretboard?

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DarrenFiggs

Post subject: Koa for a Fretboard?

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 7:08 pm

Cocobolo

Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:41 pm
Posts: 183
First name: Darren
Last Name: Figgs
State: California
Zip/Postal Code: 94519
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur

I'd like to get your thoughts on using Koa (or any other wood of that density) for a fretboard. I came across a custom electric builder who uses it as such, but I've read that you shouldn't use a wood of this softness because it wears quickly. Is this really true? Anyone have pix of a worn out fretboard made of a softer hardwood? How quickly did it wear out?

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Rod True

Post subject: Re: Koa for a Fretboard?

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 8:08 pm

Contributing Member

Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 10:03 am
Posts: 6680
Location: Abbotsford, BC Canada

It would only be recent (the past 5 years I would think) that people have used softer woods for fretboards. So I sort of doubt that anyone has had one long enough to show significant wear.
I've used Tasmanian Blackwood (sister to Koa) as a fretboard. The guitar is 2 years old, gets little to moderate use and there are no signs of wear yet.

It would really depend on how much use and aggressive style of the player. It is much softer than ebony and softer also versus EIR so my guess is it would probably only last 10-15 years of moderate use.

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dpm99

Post subject: Re: Koa for a Fretboard?

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:50 pm

Cocobolo

Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:27 pm
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Location: McKinney, TX
First name: David
Last Name: Morris
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You're going to have to finish Koa, right? I wonder how a CA finish would hold up. I've heard of people doing that before. Epoxy would be nice, but I'm not sure how you'd do it with the frets.

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Kim

Post subject: Re: Koa for a Fretboard?

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:26 pm

Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 2:21 am
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Location: Changes when ever I move..Australia
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All wood will wear from poor playing technique even the ebonies, but if the frets are kept in good condition there is no need to depress the strings hard to the fretboard so most any reasonably hardwood will hang in there OK. An exception of course is a fretless bass. Many bass builders still use softer high figure woods like koa/aussie blackwood on these instruments by having the board "acrylized" as Larry Davis of Gallery Hardwoods calls his process.

Here is some of what Larry has to say about his acrylised wood.

Quote:

ACRYLIZED WOOD produced by Gallery Hardwoods

The acrylized wood produced by Gallery Hardwoods is accomplished with a proprietary process which infuses an acrylic monomer formula thru and thru the wood (not a surface treatment) using high pressure and vacuum as part of the process. The infused wood is further processed using an initiator to polymerize the liquid resins into a solid form

Weight, density and mass of the natural wood are greatly increased by the process as is surface wearability. The process (ours or others) is not a magic bullet which prevents total wood movement, but there is a measure of increased “stability” of the wood fiber as related to normal wood movement caused by ambient climate changes. The wood movement curve is leveled more evenly and the acrylized wood will move (if it moves) much slower and not to the extremes un-processed wood will. This is true of all “stabilized” wood regardless of the processors methods and chemicals used. Resistance to moisture and chemicals are increased and grain will not rise. Water marks can occur if the acrylized wood is soaked, but buffing will remove them.

The resulting wood polymer composite requires no finish, just sand and buff to gloss desired, or a wax applied to the surface after buffing works great. Super glue works great to fill any tiny voids encountered. Use regular wood tools and wood working protocols on the acrylized wood. Acrylized wood fibers do not compress as much as regular wood so it holds carving detail better.

Here is a link showing some high figure FB blanks that have undergone Larry's stabilisation process:http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f57/acrylized-fingerboards-499699/

And here is a link to Larry's Website: http://www.galleryhardwoods.com/index.html

So acrylization is a great solution, but I am not certain how much of this Larry does now days because last I heard he was going to be spending more of his time floating about in search of Eldorado..... so you will need to contact him to see what he's up to..(must make contact myself, nice bloke that Larry)

Cheers

Kim

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Tai Fu

Post subject: Re: Koa for a Fretboard?

Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:47 am

Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:55 pm
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Location: Taiwan
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I have seen guitars that uses wood with similar density to koa, but those are really cheap guitar where the fretboard was dyed black to make it look "ebony".

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John Killin

Post subject: Re: Koa for a Fretboard?

Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:46 am

Koa

Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:43 am
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Rod True wrote:

It would only be recent (the past 5 years I would think) that people have used softer woods for fretboards. So I sort of doubt that anyone has had one long enough to show significant wear.

One other way to look at it is that in the uke world they have been using Koa for fret boards for a long time. Of course ukes are not steel string, but Koa has been used as a fret board for quite a while with decent results. This might be a good question for the Hawaiian builders. I bet there is some history with it on more than ukes. Bob Gleason from Pegasus Guitars might be able to give you some practical advice on your application.
http://www.pegasusguitars.com/

On the uke I built in 2005 I used the stew mac fret board oil and it worked great. Looks good and I have never touched it up.

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Mike Dotson

Post subject: Re: Koa for a Fretboard?

Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:55 am

Koa

Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2005 1:47 am
Posts: 504
Location: United States

I just did a uke with a koa board. I finished over it with poly and then scraped back the frets like a Fender. Of course on a uke you don't really ever plan on re-fretting.

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Quine

Post subject: Re: Koa for a Fretboard?

Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 12:24 pm

Koa

Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:42 am
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I would think a lighter color porous wood like koa would look dingy with playing. I guess you could pore fill and finish it but I'd still be worried

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Mark Groza

Post subject: Re: Koa for a Fretboard?

Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 4:22 pm

Koa

Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:51 am
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Location: Michigan,U.S.A.
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My greatest consern would be the fret tang lifting in the softer wood. As far as wear, the fret takes most the wear so that wouldn't be as great an issue for me. And as far as looks goes, a little character wouldn't hurt it for me.

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TonyFrancis

Post subject: Re: Koa for a Fretboard?

Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 4:42 pm

Koa

Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2007 1:22 pm
Posts: 766

Mark Groza wrote:

My greatest consern would be the fret tang lifting in the softer wood.

This is not a issue if you sightly over radius the fret (even on a flat board) and hammer or press them in carefully. You can also use CA or Hide glue in the channel to harden the slot walls.

IMO, you need to finish a Koa fretboard as Mike says, vintage Fender style and scrape back the frets. Its a pain in the ass, but looks KILLER.

Koa can have quite a bit of variation it density, obviously the harder the better (higher elevation wood). Some builders also use Australian Blackwood on otherwise Koa builds - its much harder and can look similar.

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DarrenFiggs

Post subject: Re: Koa for a Fretboard?

Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 4:44 pm

Cocobolo

Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:41 pm
Posts: 183
First name: Darren
Last Name: Figgs
State: California
Zip/Postal Code: 94519
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur

Great responses guys! Part of the reason I asked this is because I actually took a look at how much of my finger contacts the fretboard when I fret and it's very little. I don't use tall frets and even when bending I still don't get much contact with the fretboard. I guess I wouldn't have a problem wearing out Koa. I'll give it a shot in the future. Would small carbon fiber rods be good insurance against the pressure of the truss rod against this softer wood?

dpm99 - would you really have to put a finish on koa? won't oil suffice?

Mark - would CA glue be enough to help hold those tangs in place?

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Mike Dotson

Post subject: Re: Koa for a Fretboard?

Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 5:11 pm

Koa

Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2005 1:47 am
Posts: 504
Location: United States

I used CA as a pore filler and had no fret-lifting issues.

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Mark Groza

Post subject: Re: Koa for a Fretboard?

Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 5:12 pm

Koa

Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:51 am
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Location: Michigan,U.S.A.
Focus: Build
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DarrenFiggs wrote:

As earlier stated, over radius in the fret is the way to do all frets to lock them in but with soft woods, it doesn't mean they will stay put so i epoxy in the grooves and regroove on softer woods for extra insurance.Ca will probably work there as well to stablize the wood where the tang is locked in.I use epoxy because it takes longer to set up and has a better chance to soak in the endgrain where the tang sets.

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dpm99

Post subject: Re: Koa for a Fretboard?

Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:59 pm

Cocobolo

Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:27 pm
Posts: 313
Location: McKinney, TX
First name: David
Last Name: Morris
City: McKinney
State: TX
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur

DarrenFiggs wrote:

dpm99 - would you really have to put a finish on koa? won't oil suffice?

Theoretically, if nothing contacts the fretboard, you're fine. I'd be surprised if you had absolutely no contact with the fretboard though. There are guys here with lots more experience than me, particularly with Koa. I was just trying to help you think through some possibilities. Personally, I'd want a pretty hard finish, but that has a lot to do with my playing style.

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