Official Luthiers Forum!

The title says it all folks, what kind of glue do you use and why?

For most things, fish glue because it is easy to keep, no heating required, long (10-15 min) open time, easy clean-up, no creep, and dries as hard as HHG.

"Most things" includes gluing on braces, end and neck blocks, plates, neck laminations, fingerboards, bridges, and sometimes binding.

For headstock veneers, I'll probably reach for the yellow AR glue, just because I have some around, and joint creep is not an issue.

For bindings, I like to use CA glue. That is if the binding is relatively supple (fish glue can soften bindings just a wee bit so they go on a little better,) and I'm not worried about staining. Note that staining would not be an issue if I sealed the binding or rosette channels with shellac first. I like it for bindings because it is quick, and does not swell the wood.

If I had to pick just one glue, it would be fish glue.

Like many makers I started out doing almost everything with Titebond, and still use it for some things. These days I use:
Hot hide glue - top center join, all bracing, liners and side tapes, bridges, V-joined heads, neck mortise joint,
Titebond Original - back center join, tailblock, fingerboard, headstock face veneers, backstraps if used, scarf joints if used,
Titebond III waterproof - purfling and binding layups, laminated necks,
fish glue - gluing bindings to the body,
epoxy - sides to neck block (on my guitars that's an end grain to side grain joint), and
cyanoacylate - purfling on the top and back surfaces, odd jobs such as inlay.

up until now it´s been hide glue for me. well, i just tried titebond I for the top jointing and it was easy enough and made an invisible joint, but i think i´ll stick with hide (pun intended). i have some fish glue around that i´d like to try for bindings/purflings.

Alan, if you don´t mind me asking why don´t you use hide for the back seam and scarf joints?

cheers,
miguel.

_________________
member of the guild of professional dilettantes

hide glue for everything, but titebond for anything requiring longer open time than 30 seconds. I like hide glue because it allows you to reattach the joint should it fail later on, and it is also easier to repair (sometimes heat disassembly isn't even required, if you can get a thin knife between the joint and crack it open, slowly)

I want to give this fish glue stuff a try, because the 15 minute open time will be a real boon when it comes to binding, closing the box (on new builds), etc.

Hide glue is always used on repair work, no exceptions. Many vintage instruments are assembled with hide glue and I like to keep it that way.

You can make hide glue use a lot less painful by putting your entire batch of glue into a small plastic bottle with a pointed tip. You heat it in a water bath and when its liquid, use it like any normal glue. This allows for much faster application and therefore more time for you to clamp everything up/

CA has its place but its only used for patch gluing, like if a tiny crack somehow appears in the wood CA can be used to close them up. It is also good if the binding somehow came loose, you can clamp it up and wick thin CA into it to close them up. Also for frets that refuses to stay down (keeps springing back up for some reason even though you've hammered it as carefully as you can, when you're frustrated enough to grab a sledgehammer and smash the thing). Clamp the offending fret down with various clamps (multiple clamps needed if you are unable to adapt a radius caul) then wick thin CA into the fret, the CA will draw itself into the fret slot and beyond. Once the CA cures you can unclamp and the fret will (hopefully) stay down. They're also a good added insurance against the fret popping back up in the future for some reason.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Hot hide glue for pretty much everything.

_________________
I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
http://www.brackettinstruments.com/

HHG for just about everything, Duco for rosettes.

Everything you have read, heard, or thought you have heard or know about HHG being superior to any other adhesive is true

Been using titebond. Just started using Titebond 3. It seems to be good stuff.

And CA for inlays and binding. Epoxy on oily woods

_________________
Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust

HHG, pretty much exclusively at this point. But I want to get some fish glue for box closing and bindings, and possibly fingerboards since I have yet to glue one with hide without some sort of complication.

I'm told that Titebond III could be problematic for joints subject to creep. It's a waterproof glue, and stays rubbery. I used it for a cutting board, and it certainly creeps.

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

use Titebond Original for most everything. I'm comfortable with it, so clean-up is no big deal, and I have taken joints apart.

Tried HHG once, it was a dissaster. Best guess is I had old glue, but my best efforts resulted in a working time of less than three seconds. The stuff would start to gel soon as I got it out of the pot! Definately a learning curve invovled here, some tricks I have yet to figure out. I did buy some new, but haven't had the nerve to try it out yet.

The fish stuff sounds interesting.

Tried Titebond III once, won't use it again on an instrument. Tack time was too long, felt like I was spending too much time and effort working around gummy glue.

_________________
Phil

http://www.oleninstruments.com

"Those who tilt at windmills are only considered insane by those who can't see the dragon."

Did you mix the hide glue properly? If you use too little water you would have such a short open time as you described. I mix 1 part glue to 2 part water by volume. I know its imprecise but it worked so far. That gives me about a minute of open time.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Fish glue. Its really sticky, and cleans up with water. Its like hide glue without having to mix up and heat. Titebond 1 is pretty good too.

_________________
Jason Moe
LaCrosse WI 54601

Another HHG devotee here.

Rick

_________________
Rick

I thought I did, but who knows. I tried everything I could think of.

The project at the time was a fiddle kit, and it came with a packet of glue granules. I only needed to glue three things, the neck joint, fingerboard, and top, so I figured why not just mix up as much as I need? Three tablespoons or so, did it in a small double boiler, and paid real close attention to temps.

From another forum I was visiting at the time, the consensus was that the granules had become degraded from age, most likely from moisture getting into the packet. I have no idea how old it was. I finally got it to work in a very dilute form, using a wash coat. Then clamped on the top and used a hot, wet pallet knife to reactivate a few inches at a time.

Does it work better if you mix up more? And how much should I mix?

One minute working time sounds pretty good for most things I do, but is it enough for joining top halves? With the pieces only 1/8" thick, takes me longer than that to get everything clamped up and get a board across the seam.

_________________
Phil

http://www.oleninstruments.com

"Those who tilt at windmills are only considered insane by those who can't see the dragon."

Hide Glue in granular form does not go off, unless it's kept in pretty poor conditions. If you use the tape method for joining boards you will barely need 20 seconds. Besides, there are methods to extend the working time of HHG. I once glued 24 strips of Veneer together for making Rosette tiles. That's a whole lot of gluing. Most people would think it impossible.Timing dry runs I worked out that I needed 4 minutes to get the glue on and the whole assembly into the clamping device. I suspended a couple of heat lamps over the bench, everything laid out in a logical manner. The HHG was dispensed straight from the bottle. With practice I got it down to less than 3 minutes 30 seconds.

Hide glue's nearly unlimited shelf life in dry form is one of my favorite things about it, along with the ability to reactivate with water and heat. But I've never encountered any that had been exposed to moisture for a long period of time, so maybe it does go funky.

There are 3 main ways to mess up hide glue: Not enough water, too much water, and surfaces too cold.

There's no minimum batch size to mix, but getting the water content right is a matter of feel so I can't explain it. I also vary it depending on the task (thicker for small joints like braces, thinner for large joints like headplate and fingerboard).

Most of the times I've had problems, it was too thick glue on a task that takes too long for it. You can use thick glue if you warm the surfaces and get it clamped within 5 seconds or so, but otherwise it leaves too thick of a glue line and will come apart easily.

Too thin glue doesn't ever really gel, but makes a weak joint as well even if you get it clamped while warm.

For heating, most of the time I just use my body heat (hold the piece between my arm and side or whatever) to get the open time up to 10-20 seconds, which is usually plenty to squeeze the glue out and get some clamps on. For the few joints that do need more time, there's a gas stove in the kitchen I should get a heat gun so I don't have to walk back and forth though.

And for plate joining, I also use the tape method, which is indeed extremely fast. Plus it prevents glue from getting on the show face, which saves some time scraping it off later.

Liberty brand (local metro hdwd) fast setting cabinetmakers white glue, laminating necks, inlays, gluing tops , backs and front an rear blocks, butt veneer, headstock veneer. System 3 epoxy fingerboards/butt joints. Titebond 1 general shop chores. laminating bindings,purflings, etc. titebond white translucent white glue(hides gluelines , from lowes) gluing in binding /purfling.HHG gluing in braces.Duco cement gluing and laminating in rosettes. Water thin ca from hobby lobby shop. misc repairs, cracks , gluing in pearl dots etc. Would like to try fish, but will wait till finished using titebond white translucent.

Above 70* it takes HHG over a minute to gel. No hurry for most things.

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

mqbernardo asked:
"Alan, if you don´t mind me asking why don´t you use hide for the back seam and scarf joints?"

Open time, mostly. I put the center strips in as part of the back joint, and that slows things down. Also, it's often cool in my shop, particularly in the winter, and for a large area and with a setup that takes a bit of time to get all the clamps on, like a scarf joint, I'm not sure about HHG.

I do like the fish glue in many ways, but have found it _much_ harder to get apart than HHG.

Just because it has not been mentioned, I use a lot of Urea Formaldehyde glue. It comes in powder, so I have to mix it up, but it dries glass hard and is the strongest glue I have ever used.

_________________
Ken

Try getting a joint apart with that glue though. Virtually impossible without causing some damage.

I think Urea formaldehyde glue is better suited for lamination, like making plywood and stuff. I can bet it's what many Asian guitars use, so that is also why neck resets are impossible with them.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com