Official Luthiers Forum!

So, in my question for fretting perfection I've been doing a ton of research on techniques, philosophies, preferences etc. of others that are much better at this than I. I also have been analysing the guitars I own that I feel are set up well. I noticed a very interesting thing on my ES-335. It seems like instead of the frets being even height from nut to body, they seem to slope downward toward the bridge. Almost as if they were leveled, given fall away, then with a bit of relief in the neck the "hump" around the "tongue" area was flattened out a bit. In essence, all that seems to be going on is the frets nearest the nut are slightly higher and slope down gradually into the rest of the neck. I've read somewhere that Stevie Ray Vaughn liked his guitars to be set up this way. It makes sense when you consider the vibration of the strings. To my knowledge, Gibson uses a PLEK for all of their fret work so I don't imagine this is a mistake.

Does this sound right? Does anyone here do this or something similar?

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"I'm not going to say that perfection has never been achieved. However, if it has, it probably went unnoticed due to it's lack of character."

NO and NO..............................!!! PLEK is just a rookie and I'm not sure where he got his training. He no doubt thinks he's a luthier..................!!! I would not take my guitar to him.
Tom

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A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

Not every Gibson is PLEKked, only certain models.

But even if they were, what the PLEK process does is mill relief into the fret plane, while the neck shaft is straight.

In my experience, neck shafts from Gibson are NEVER straight, and I'm not just saying that. EVERY ONE of them has an S-curve or a twist, or some kind of warpage.

I believe it is because of how they build their necks.

So what you are seeing may very well be an artifact of poor construction coupled with a PLEK job, resulting in uneven fret heights.

FWIW I too frequently redo, and even refret, PLEKked guitars.

In fact, a client of mine who is a national signed act and has had me refret all his guitars with stainless steel wire was talked into having one of his guitars PLEKked by some guy in Nashville, who told him "This machine can do what no luthier can do", and he frankly thought my guitar played as good or better than the PLEKked one already, comparing the guitars afterwards.

$300 for a glorified computerized fret dress that I can do for $80 and have it play just as cleanly.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

Sounds familiar. Jimmy, owner of Mass St. Music described seeing Gibson's and Martin's PLEKs in action (no pun intended). At Gibson, very agressive, lots of metal chips flying, but at Martin, it looks like more of a touch-up.

Pat

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formerly known around here as burbank
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

The PLEK is just a machine. I have seen a lot of terrible fret jobs done by hand but I don't blame the file.

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http://www.chassonguitars.com

What you are describing makes no sense...at least in terms of relief. You can get the same effect from a properly leveled and fretted fingerboard. In other words, the string's tendency to buzz is not affected by fret height....it is only affected by the distance from the string to the top of the fret. If you need more clearance between the strings and the frets, raise the bridge.
I will say that the upper frets don't need to be as tall, because with uniform fret height, the shorter distance between them can result in the string being bent at a sharper angle during fretting.

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John

Wow, I didn't realize so many people had replied to this. Thanks!

FWIW, my 335 is one of the best playing guitars I own. It was a replacement and it seems like they may have picked an exceptional one so as to not have to give me any more free stuff. When I bought it in 2008, the truss rod never held. I used to adjust it every few weeks and it would just drift back into forward bow. They replaced it no questions asked and this one has been great. Everyone that plays it tends to agree.

I may have also mis-evaluated the neck but I'm pretty sure my straight edge and feeler gauges don't lie.

So, the general consensus tends to be that level is level and making the lower frets a touch higher is hogwash. Correct?

How about uneven, yet level fret height? Meaning the frets do a slight downward slope moving from nut to bridge. I have had the opposite. Would this make any difference whatsoever or just be annoying? I would think as long as the straight edge sits across all of them, it shouldn't make any difference.

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"I'm not going to say that perfection has never been achieved. However, if it has, it probably went unnoticed due to it's lack of character."

It doesn't matter what the underlying wood is doing (to a degree!) as long as the fret plane is level.

In fact, if there's a hump in the wood, I would expect the frets above that hump to look shorter than the ones to either side of the hump. So likely your neck has some irregularities in the wood.

My point about the PLEK machine is that the machine mills relief into the fret plane when the neck (wood) is straight. It actually tries to mill more relief into the bass side than the treble side. Coupled with the fact that Gibson necks are never straight, I would expect to see irregular fret heights on one.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

As far as uneven fret height from nut to bridge, in my experience, due to the trapezoidal shape if the fretboard with the nut being narrower in width than the end of the fretboard, If you file the frets parallel to the string path, the nut end of the fretboard will in fact recieve more file strokes than the end of the fretboard where they will be more spread out. This will make the FRET PLANE slope UP towards the bridge, by a couple of thousandths of an inch over the length of the board.

This should be completely inconsequential, and nobody has ever noticed or complained about it to me after having a fret dress done on their guitars.

Really, I don't know why it should be a problem.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

Is this common? It would make sense considering that the wound strings are more prone to buzz. When my necks are dead straight and the frets are dead level, my low "e" string always buzzes up to around the 12th fret. I end up having to add relief which I don't like to do because I love the response of a straight, stiff neck.

It also seems that, with a conical radius, there are 2 kinds of relief to consider - the straightness of the frets themselves and the straightness of each string path. The latter being the more relevant. Am I correct?

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"I'm not going to say that perfection has never been achieved. However, if it has, it probably went unnoticed due to it's lack of character."

My thoughts, based on my experience with my friend having the guitar I worked on Plekked, and then comparing that guitar to how it played before and after, and then compared to his other nearly identical guitar that I also worked on and having them be indistinguishable, is that at the string heights where it matters, technique is the biggest factor controlling string buzz, not whether or not the bass side has a thousandth of an inch more relief than the treble side.
As long as the frets are levelled and dressed immaculately, of course, and the fretboard is conistent with no humps or warps. Whenever I do a refret, I true the fretboard.

As far as compound radii go, same thing. True fretboard, level frets, technique is the biggest factor.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

Technique in playing or technique as it applies to fret leveling and dressing?

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"I'm not going to say that perfection has never been achieved. However, if it has, it probably went unnoticed due to it's lack of character."

If they want a dead straight neck and 3/64treble-1/16thbass (or lower) action across the fretboard they better have good technique. But at the same time, your fretwork and the trueness of the fretboard must be flawless.

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Old growth, shmold growth!