Official Luthiers Forum!

I am wondering if this is possible. I was under the impression that silking is evidence of 1/4 ing. So I have a new guitar totally without. The lines look perpendicular at the soundhole.

Silking is evidence of vertical grain. Past 2 degrees the silk starts to go away. Tops can be quartersawn with no silk.

_________________
Old growth, shmold growth!

Not all pieces of wood will have as large and pronounced medullary structures which is what we see as silk. That is another reason one piece will seem to be really silky and another not.

_________________
Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

So what grade would a piece like that be? It has some minimal marking somewhat like bearclaw but hardly visable. The two sides are almost but not quite the same color so there is a little runout but very little difference. When pics of the top were shown to me no difference was appearant in color.

I would consult whoever sold it to you as to what their grading entails, there's no one standard.

What I do is I tell my supplier what I want and let them pick out the top.

They then send me a picture and tell me a price, and if I agree I buy it.

I then scrutinize it very carefully, and if I'm the least bit disappointed I call them.

All my tops have zero long grain runout and vertical grain with strong medullary rays across the entire top.

As such, I myself consider them all to be top grade tops.

Most of them have interseting stripes and symmeytrical colorations that I find nifty, as such they might be downgraded by people who downgrade for color but will accept slight runout and weaker medullary rays, and they would consider their tops higher grade.

I think if you know what you want, grading systems become less important, other than if you have a supplier who grades consistently, you can order larger quantities faster.

_________________
Old growth, shmold growth!

Wow, that's a very difficult question to answer. Typically wood is graded primarily for cosmetics and not physical properties. The master grade tops I have purchased ( from reputable dealers, not e-bay) typically aren't as good concerning the physical properties, but they sure are pretty.
Myself, I'd rather build with wood that meets my expectations when it comes to the mechanical properties than with wood that's just pretty.
So it sounds to me that if you're grading on cosmetic properties is something less than master grade (maybe). And not having any idea about the physical properties I certainly don't know how it would be graded concerning the mechanical properties.
BTW: wood can have great properties and still have some run-out.

_________________
Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

Run-out in a top is not typically something you want if looking to maximize medullary ray silking, and it sounds like your guitar has some noticeable run-out. You see more silking when tops are cut closer to the split face (ie, minimal long grain run-out). Quarter-sawn is only one piece of the equation. Of course, as others have said, some trees inherently have less pronounced medullary structure to begin with.

_________________
Aaron Craig

I finished a guitar with amazing silking, but which also shows what appears to be runout in the long grain because the top photographs with the left and right halves being different colors. I'm not home now, but I will try to grab a pic to post later on. It is the Hurricane Sandy guitar by the way. I could not see any color shift before the finish was applied, but after...oh boy.

_________________
http://www.CostaGuitars.com
PMoMC

A wipe with paint thinner might help to show the extent of runout.

Alex

_________________
"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

I'm certainly not saying you cannot have a top that exhibits both perceivable run-out and silking. That's not true. But all other things being equal, you would expect to see more defined medullary ray patterns in a hand-split, run-out-free (or as close as humanly possible) set than the same wood cut off axis. In other words, just imagine what your particular set would have looked like without any appreciable run-out.

_________________
Aaron Craig

It was a top from a split billet, which is why I don't get the run-out look that appeared after finishing.

And Alex, Where were you when I needed you? Actually, I had wiped it a few times with various liquids during the build. Though I am not certain if I used paint thinner. I did use mineral spirits, DNA and lacquer thinner because they were on or near the bench.

_________________
http://www.CostaGuitars.com
PMoMC

Long grain runout doesn't really affect silking. The silking is actually the medullary rays, a food transport tissue that grows perpendicular to the annular rings across the sawn face. If the annular rings (the endgrain) are 90 degrees vertical the rays will present strongly between the grain lines. Tight grain however has extremely short meds and so are not as visible. 2 degrees off vertical and they will be kinda wavy impressions rather than actual fibers, and past that they go away completely. They run throughout the thickness of the tree and so are not affected by the type of runout Tony is talking about.

_________________
Old growth, shmold growth!

If this was any other member here I would assume this means De-Natured Alcohol, but since it is you, I have to ask.

_________________
Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

It was whatever you think it was.

_________________
http://www.CostaGuitars.com
PMoMC

Waiting by the phone, Tony, like an old maid. But with Bryan's observation, I'm kinda glad you didn't call!

Alex

_________________
"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

Waves, yes that is what I see not bearclaw. In the right light I found I can see light silking and as I said the grains on the sound hole look straight up. So the conclusion Im understanding is the split is a little off but that doesnt effect the sound production of the guitar. This guitar was a commission for me, it is done, finished and paid for. So using another top is not an option.
The other custom I have has dramatic silking so I guess I expected that and not the milder top on this new guitar.
Thanks all

It could ALSO indicate that the trunk was a little spiral, that will cause a top to exhibit that effect as well, since spiral grain will effectively cause a well-split top to have slight runout once sanded.

_________________
Old growth, shmold growth!

So... Quartersawing is a process... If you look - they cut the log into quarters - then saw those quarters into boards.... It's accepted in the trades that quartersawn can be anything from vertical to about 30 degrees from vertical.... Of course, we generally don't accept that sort of thing... but we might if it's say a "Super-Ultra" Bearclaw top with a perfect, unique figure....

Now... with our tops... Some folks LOVE silking... Some hate it... Some customers get distracted by silking "Shining" in lights and such....

Then... The whole "Grade" and price thing is kinda a negotiation... Say you don't have a fortune laying around... or care about Sound more than Color... Are you willing to take some dark streaks to get Silk? Are you willing to take a little swirl? How about a Perfectly Cut set that came out of a slightly twisted billet - and the set is actually slightly twisted... but otherwise perfectly cut?

What I found with vendors is that if Medullary rays are important to you - ask for them.. sometimes, you may pay perhaps 1 grade "Upcharge" for them to poke through the pile of lower grade stuff to find the ones you want.... Sometimes, you don't... It's worth it, though - if I can get an "A" grade top at an "A" grade price that meets all "My" requirements for AAA......

Overall, though - my best luck in this case is to talk with vendors and tell them what you want and what you don't care about... and that can point you towards the right price point.... like say you are OK with wide/uneven grain and color streakies - but you want Very low runout, Med rays all the way across.... You will get that for a lower price than you would for perfect, white, fine, even grain and not so well cut....

Thanks

Wow, I never knew there was so much to it. Thank you all.