Official Luthiers Forum!

hi,

i'm doing some forward research on "clear coating" even though i'm still in the painting stage of this solid body strat style guitar, which i'm documenting here: http://lilbess.blogspot.com. this is a resto-mod project.

at this time, i am not planning on becoming a full-time luthier and therefore do not have a reason to have a professional spray gun, setup and shop, so in lieu of that process, i'll like to hear your input on stewMac's aerosol lacquer ( http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Finishing_supplies/Finishes_and_solvents/ColorTone_Aerosol_Guitar_Lacquer.html?tab=Details ).

for my base color applications, i have been using "krylon's color master", b/c i've had the best results with them as a fine-art artist. prior to the first coat, i removed the pre-existing clearcoat with 80g, 120g, 180g, 320g, 400g, 600g sandpaper. between coats, i have been using 600g sandpaper to prep for the next coat of paint. so far, it's look really good.

with that said, i don't mind using 800g, 1000g, 1200g, 1500, and even 2000g sandpaper between aerosol lacquer coats if that's what it takes to achieve a professional look of shine, gloss and depth on the completed project. one of my hopes for the conclusion of this guitar is to have a hard candy/clear coat shell as one might get on a guitar purchased at the store. obviously, no guitar is impervious to dings, but i've noticed that some hold up really well. (perhaps there is something on this topic that i'm not aware of and if so, feel free to clue me in.)

also, i should probably ask about these buffing foam pads for hand-held drills ( http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Finishing_supplies/Buffing/Foam_Polishing_Pads.html ). are these things more for putting a coat of wax or something else on a completed guitar? i'm wondering how fast they'd eat through aerosol lacquer if i were to attempt to use them to buff coats ... what grain would they be considered?

looking forward to learning more from you all!
thanks,
shad

I did use one of the stew mac rattle can nitro. It was my first experience with nitro. It worked just ok.

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Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust

hey joe, to make sure i understand you, do you mean, "just", colloquially or literally? was it merely/barely[not impressed] kind of "just" ok OR did it work satisfactory kind of ok?

secondly, how hard was the lacquer after completion? good as a store-bought guitar hard? i'm going to go this route unless i get a flood of forum members telling me not to go this route and just pay someone ... which i kind of don't want to do, b/c i am the artist.

cheers!

I like their laquer, but it blushes easily in humidity.

I used to get really good results with rattle cans, but to getthat really good mirror smooth finish, you gotta use a LOT of it.

If I were you, I would get a bunch of those Prevall sprayers and a quart of spray laquer. It dries faster and harder than the rattle cans, and also builds faster.

They have them cheap at HomeDepot and you can mix it yourself.

I thin it 50/50 for the Prevalls, and still use them for touchup work.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

okay, do you mean this product (http://www.homedepot.com/p/Preval-9-oz-Complete-Spray-Gun-267/202533738#.Uh1skRusjlU)? i'm guessing you aren't talking about their $150 pen-size air-brush spray gun.

one review for this inexpensive item read:

so, if this is what you're talking about that's pretty cool and affordable!

I finish with rattle can lacquer(that will change soon). Those foam buffers you put in a drill will work, but they are difficult to control.
I use a 6" automotive buffer with bonnets for each different compound. You can get one for $25-$30, and they are miles above those foam buffers, IMHO. They also have the added plus of being a lot easier on the finish. Those foam buffers are spinning constantly. It'd be easy to burn through. The automotive buffer has more of a random action, moves a lot slower and is much more forgiving. MHO.
Plus, when you're done with it, you can change the bonnet and buff the wax out on your car with it. What's not to love?

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Mike

The only thing nescessary for evil to thrive is for good men to do nothing.

Yes, I'm talking about the cheap 9 ounce "spray gun", as they put it, LOL!

Get that, and a few propellant refills and you're good to go using the really good laquer.

I mix it 50/50 with laquer thinner.

Definitely cheaper over the course of finishing one instrument than the aerosols.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

I used it on a none guitar project. I am use to KTM 9. I found the lacquer very thin by comparison. It is slow building. And sanding it out was somewhat of a pain. I kept getting embedded white marks that were hard to get rid of. but.... when it was finally buffed out it did make a pretty good finish. With practice and advice from the more experienced in its use, you should be fine.

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Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust

Yup, the aerosols are VERY thin by comparison.

Spray gun laquer builds MUCH faster even thinned 50/50.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

I've used Behlen's instrument lacquer in aerosol available from Woodcraft & Deft in aerosol available from Lowe's.

People say not to use Deft because it doesn't have enough plasticizers & will craze. I used on my first 2 & no problems yet.

IMO the Deft is the easiest to spray. It also happens to be the least expensive.

Kevin Looker

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I'm not a luthier.
I'm just a guy who builds guitars in his basement.
It's better than playing golf.

I used the Stew Mac stuff and it works well and is suitable for an entire instrument. Spray equipment is obviously better but you can get good results with the rattle cans too. Prep work is paramount in getting a good finish no matter how it's applied.

what a pleasant surprise it was to log back in and see a flood of great responses! thanks, everyone~!

i don't want to sacrifice quality for money and not be as satisfied, but from everyone's replies, i feel like i'm leaning towards the spray equipment and well, it's rather affordable too. so, with that decision somewhat made, before i set that decision in concrete, i would like to know if there is a different hardness level between to the two applications of spray equip vs rattle can. what causes the hardness of the finish? is it the amount of layers applied? obviously, it's not a car where i could bake on a powder coat in an "oven", so to speak.

My first several guitars were with the rattle cans, and in my opinion, it takes entirely too long for the material to harden sufficiently, and takes forever to build. I think it has to do with the additives they have to put in to make it aerosoluble from the can. Retarders, plasticizers, all kinds of crap. In fact, I finished a guitar with Deft rattle can laquer that STILL isn't hard, ten years later.

The Spray formulations don't have all that, and so dry harder faster. Well, MOST don't have all that. I've been using the Watco laquer with great results. I also use the Behlens stringed instrument laquer, but the Watco is cheaper and looks just as good.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

thanks, this response just determined the approach i will take.

also, i need to ask about how (this watco) lacquer will adhere to acrylic rattle can paint. the reason i ask is because i once had the following scenario: i used a flat black spray paint on sanded coffee table legs and then applied a clear coat and it instantly caused the black paint to bubble up and peel off the wood completely. it was a wonderful stripper ... but it was supposed to seal the paint. lol i called krylon about it and though i don't remember the exact conversation, basically, it was the chemical makeup of the acrylic paint versus the (lacquer?) sealer. perhaps, you know what i'm talking about.

so, in regards to this watco lacquer and lacquer in general, what are the particular wording on can labels that i'm looking for in hopes to seal acrylic paint on a guitar? are there different kinds of lacquer that i need to be aware of?

thanks again!

I have no clue. I don't mix and match.

Most laquers say something like "test for compatibility on an inconspicuous area".

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Old growth, shmold growth!

It sounds to me like you sprayed lacquer over enamel. Can't do that without that nice bubbly effect you got. As for Krylon, the old formulation used to be acrylic lacquer, but for a while now Krylon has gone to enamel. Most of their spray cans, unless you get old stock, are now enamel. I found out the hard way a couple of years ago.
With nitro versus acrylic lacquers, you need to test first, but most times if you allow the acrylic to cure well, and use a mist coat for your first couple of nitro coats, it will work.
That's according to tons of people on TDPRI whose posts I've read on the subject.

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Mike

The only thing nescessary for evil to thrive is for good men to do nothing.

man, am i learning a lot on this forum!! i did some further research on google about lacquer applications over enamels, which by the way, i established that these krylon "colorMaster" cans are in fact enamel and ironically, i found a forum that talked about the 2 or 3 mist coating application you mentioned ... when i looked at the forum url, it was tdpri.com. lol

now, the house paint is colorPlace interior latex, so i shouldn't have any problem with lacquer over that ... right?? i hope not, because that is what i'm going to use to paint the mural. {tries not to become paranoid. LoL} IF, this latex over rattle can enamel is not an issue, i can simply use Preval's sprayer (of course, thinning the paint) to CoVeR the enamel and then lacquer away! can you verify this approach as do-able or not?

thanks for your continued patience and support.


p.s. oh, by the way, not that i'm going for ratings, but why is this particular thread only 2 stars in the forum room? could it be improved to gain more stars or is that even necessary? just curious what is the criteria for star ratings.

What about brushing lacquer as an alternate to spraying? I have a customer who wants nitro on B&S as opposed to my usual French Polished shellac, and I do not want to invest in spray equipment (and price isn't high enough to afford farming out the spray job). Is brushing nitro a reasonable alternative to brushing varnish?

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

Shad, I don't think lacquer will work over latex. I think you'll find the chemicals that make up the lacquer will eat right through the latex like it isn't even there.
Jim, they make brushing lacquer, which from what I hear works well. There are a few guys here that brush, but I can't remember who they are right now. Lowes sells Deft brushing lacquer and Home Depot sells Minwax brushing lacquer, last time I checked. Another good brand to look for by rep is Watco. Just make sure whatever yu buy says brushing lacquer.
The posts I've read about brushing spray lacquer lead me to believe it would be pretty much a mess. Hopefully someone with greater experience with the subject will step in.

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Mike

The only thing nescessary for evil to thrive is for good men to do nothing.

ay yai yai ... i'll get back to this thread in a bit. i gotta find a clear coating sealer that will work with latex house paint and dry hard.

Jim Kirby wrote,"What about brushing lacquer as an alternate to spraying? I have a customer who wants nitro on B&S as opposed to my usual French Polished shellac, and I do not want to invest in spray equipment (and price isn't high enough to afford farming out the spray job). Is brushing nitro a reasonable alternative to brushing varnish?"
Our man Tony in NY has a tut.
viewtopic.php?f=10117&t=36174

Ken

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Ken Lewis

I do! A friend of mine called Deft and they said the brushing and spray lacquer are the same formula but the certifications cost more to sell a spray lacquer. Something like that. You can brush or spray Deft brushing lacquer but it might need to be thinned for spraying.

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http://www.CostaGuitars.com
PMoMC

i know that multi-colored guitars at the music store didn't have house paint used on them, but just the same, they have hard clear coats, so what lacquer type are they using and/or what paint type are they using for the bright "hello kitty" guitars? there has got to be a solution for clear coating latex house paint ... and whatever it is, i'm missing. sorry if you all have already addressed this and i merely didn't pick up on what was being said.

There's a very old rule of thumb in finishing: Fat over Lean. In other words, if you put a hard coat of something over something soft, it will crack, not stick, or otherwise fail.

Lacquer over latex couldn't be a more perfect example of what NOT to do. Lacquer hard, latex soft! I'm afraid you simply won't get that "hello kitty" shiny guitar look this time. Best bet at this juncture is to use Krylon's clear coat, which presumably has been tested with their paints. You might want to check with them.

Electric guitars have generally used the same finish types as cars from whatever era they were in. Early on, it was nitro lacquer, then acrylic lacquer with nitro clear coats, then two part urethanes, etc. The point I'm getting to is that you may want to visit your friendly auto supply touch up section if you want some colors and clears that will shine up nicely.