Official Luthiers Forum!

Does anyone know the history behind 3 on a plate tuners? Why are they used? Is it tradition or ease of mass production?

It's so difficult to drill for 3 on a plate tuner because if you are off by even .000001 nanometer the tuner will not fit, and it is very hard to correct it. Of course you can buy a $160 jig from Stewmac that makes it a breeze...

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Best to make or buy a drill guide. Not only do the holes have to be correctly spaced, they also need to be parallel and in the same plane. If not they will bind.

Chuck

_________________
_________________

Some years go Richard Brune told me it was quite satisfactory to make a drill guide by using a drill press to drill the three holes in a block of hard wood. Once you get these correct, slap on another piece of wood to extend down to clamp to the headstock. The drilling in the headstock can then be done with a hand held drill.

i tried this about a year ago when i was screwing around with a slotted neck. i found the grain of most woods still skews the bit a tiny bit one way or another, and that error seems to be magnified by the time you work up to a 10-12mm bit or whatever the roller size is. if you have an old set of tuners you can use the plate to make 3 pilot holes, but again, i found ultimately i had enough error to worry about. it didn't help that my drill press is chinese junk and i don't have brad point bits, but still, i was surprised...
for 6 in line holes i have used a sacrificial strat neck with pretty good accuracy... but the wood will wear out quickly and get sloppy.
of course "Duh Padma" will log in here shortly and tell me that no, i have done no such thing, in which case he must be correct, and i have hallucinated all this

If you can find bushings of the correct size, with a drill press you can make an accurate jig.

Alex

_________________
"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

this is my procedure for slotted headstocks (well, it's not really mine, this is how i was taught to do this):
I use a jig (basically just a square block on which 5 lines are drawn, spaced apart the distance between the tuners (in my case 35mm for a classical)).
I draw the same lines 35 mm apart on the headstock indicating where the holes will go.
clamp the headstock to the block so the lines line up.
position the drill for the first hole, and clamp the block to the drill press table
drill the first hole, and slide the headstock 35 mm further, so the lines line up again
drill the second hole
etc.
I never had any problems, using this method.
I drill holes with a 10,5mm drill bit, for 10mm rollers.
also, drill first, route later.

Mr Fu:

-make a jig
-buy a jig
-take the roller and spur off and use the base for a layout template.

this is a really easy problem. be creative! you're a good builder -i'm sure you can come up with something.

as far as the history goes i have no idea. as used for steel string guitars maybe they're a carry-over from classical's? how they arrived to the classical world i just don't know.

I saw someone on this forum with a rather ingenious method of making a jig. Wish I could remember who it was, because it deserved a thumbs up from me.

Basically, he drilled three holes the right size in the center of a long block of really hard wood, but didn't take too much trouble to get the spacing perfect, just close. This is where the simplicity came in. Then, he cut the long block into three smaller ones, put them on the tuner, then glued a strip of wood along all three. End result - perfect alignment.

So whoever posted that originally,

_________________
Phil

http://www.oleninstruments.com

"Those who tilt at windmills are only considered insane by those who can't see the dragon."

Tai Fu has stated that he knows solutions (at least one) to drilling for these tuners. His question is about the history of this form of tuner. Like all of you, I've worked out my own solutions for the drilling challenge (it gets fussier with mandolins, but still easily manageable). But I am curious about the history of these things, too. So, if anyone knows the answer, I'd sure like to read it.
Patrick

"cut the long block into three smaller ones, put them on the tuner, then glued a strip of wood along all three. End result - perfect alignment."

So whoever posted that originally,

certainly worthy of another

Of all the various overpriced luthiery jigs I've purchased, the LMI slotted headstock jig is the one I wouldn't be without, and it gets used on every guitar, and I've never regretted a penny of it.

_________________
Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

The oldest 3-on-a-plate tuners that I've seen are likely those by Baker of London and seen on Louis Panormo guitars. Baker was also famous for producing machines for Bass Viols which (I can just imagine) made tuning these things much easier.
Other tuners by Rance, Demet and a type seen on very early slotted head German made guitars all appeared C. 1830-40.
Previous to this wooden pegs or the six-on-side Vienna style tuners (seen on Stauffer and very early Martins) predominated.

Jerome 3-on-a-plate tuners, made by Jerome Thibouville Lamy of Mirecourt France
were in common usage on C.F.Martin guitars by around 1845-50 (the earliest ones with bone rollers).

For steel string tuners, Stewmac has a block shaped drilling guide that is under $30 as well as the higher priced adjustable one.
I bought it after making and using my own from wood and having to adjust the holes

I doubt I am the one you are thinking of as I am surely not the first one to think of it but I did exactly that on my challenge mando last year. I needed something quick and dirty. I used MDF (which worked because I only needed to use it to do one peghead). The principle is sound and the next time I have the need to do this, I will use more robust materials. I will use hardwood and drill over sized holes to fit drill bushings. Put in the bushings and line them up on the tuner posts then glue together. I'll probably also glue them together using a piece of wood that matches the curve of the side of the peghead to make positioning and clamping easier.

You can see my really minimalist attempt here:
viewtopic.php?f=10133&t=37268&start=75

_________________
Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

You know I used a drill press (which takes care of the hole being square problem) and thought to measure the centers exactly 1 3/8" apart. First 2 fits but last one was just slightly off, couldn't have been more than 1/32". But that was enough to make the thing not fit. Actually it was more like each one was just slightly off but the error compounded enough that by the last hole, it did not fit. So I basically enlarged just the last hole by about 1mm and that took care of the fit problem, however I don't know if there will be problems down the line.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Using brad point drill bits helps. Using good quality brad point bits makes accurate drilling a breeze.

Alex

_________________
"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

I can't help with the answer to why they make 3 on a plate tuners, but using the base plate with the posts removed works like a charm. I have used various shop made jigs for drilling the holes, but in all my wisdom, had never thought of using the base plate as a template until I read this thread. I had recently plugged some over sized holes in a 30's Gibson L-00, and was ready to re-drill when I logged in here. I looked in my misc. tuner box and found an old L-00 base plate that already had the posts removed. The holes are actually a little smaller than the tuner posts, which is fine since I like to finish mine out with my reamer.

I taped the tuner plate to the front of the peg head, and lowered the brad point bit into the hole BEFORE I turned on the drill press. This way I avoided hitting the edge of the base plate hole, and either ruining my bit, or causing the jig to move slightly out of alignment. Drilling from the FRONT of the peg head is important on old Gibsons, since the peg head is tapered. With the back of the peg head laying flat on the drill press support base, your holes will be exactly perpendicular to the back of the peg head. The base plate of your tuner will not fit snuggly against the back of the peg head if the holes are not perpendicular to the back.

It took me a total of 15 minutes to find the tuner plate, find the correct bit, tape on the plate, and drill the holes. Thanks to Arie for this tip.

A. Use a brad point bit.
B. Use a drill press.
C. Drill from the front with the back flat on the support.
D. Lower the bit so that the brad point is sunk into the wood before you turn on the drill press. I do this any time that I am drilling tuner holes with or with out a jig.

James

I never realized you can use the plate as a guide. I just found the original Stella tuner from the restoration work, it was replaced (on the guitar) because one of the gear stripped, so I kept the tuner around. I took all the gears off and can now use it as a guide in the future.

The problem is not all 3 on a plate tuners are the same 1 3/8" spacing... I encountered cheap guitars with different spacing, and that was hell to get standard 3 on a plate tuners to fit.

Do these tuners suffer if the holes were oversized?

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com