Official Luthiers Forum!

Hello

This is my first post on this forum and I wasn't exactly sure where to post this, so if it is in the wrong place, my apologies...

I am very interested in becoming a luthier. In fact, it's starting to become an obsession even though I haven't done much. I replaced a nut on one of my guitars, and pickups in two of them recently, and it re-sparked an interest in it that I have had for about the last 25 years or so. It started when I first started playing guitar at 16, and really kicked into high gear when I met Ted McCarty a year later (if I knew then what I know now... wow...).

Anyway, my question is, what is the best route to take to become a luthier? I am interested in taking the Masters program at the Galloup lutherie school here in Michigan (or the journeyman program if I can't get the funding), but $18,500 is pretty steep.

I'm not exactly a young man anymore though, so I'm kind of in a hurry to learn as much as I can in the shortest amount of time.

I have been watching tons of videos on YouTube on the subject and I almost feel like I would be better off just getting some books and watching the videos and slowly build up a tool collection (I would be starting with nothing pretty much) and learn through trial and error.

Would I be better off taking the journeyman program and trying to get an apprenticeship in a luthier's shop, or maybe working in a production guitar factory? Maybe just doing setups and the like at a music store? I would really hate to get stuck in that though--I really, REALLY want to build guitars of my own design from scratch (acoustic and electric).

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,

Anthony

If you're looking at acoustics, you might consider something like this course as a starting point http://dejongelutherie.com/course.html

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

This may provide some preliminary insight --- from zero to making a living has many challenges.

viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=45044&hilit=making+a+living+building+guitars#p595737

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Anthony, welcome to the forum. You are going to get about a hundred different answers from a hundred different people - every one of them will be correct. Your problem will be to sort thru them and see what makes sense for you.

I'm going to ask some questions that you should ask yourself. First, define "luthier". Second, why do you want to do this - to build a few guitars, to do it as a hobby, to make a living at it? Answer honestly how much time and money you are willing to invest for each of those goals. If it is to make a living, have you given it serious business consideration?

Each of those approaches is valid - learning on your own from books and the internet, apprenticing to an established builder, taking classes either from a builder or from some sort of facility, going to work for a manufacturer and working your way up thru the system. As far as I'm concerned doing setups at your local music store is not "lutherie" (altho a lot of people seem to think so) but certainly making a business out of doing repairs and setups is another valid approach.

I once heard it said that somewhere around 30 instruments you can finally call yourself a "luthier" - you've made most of the mistakes, you've started to understand the wood and what its telling you and you've learned to use the tools and techniques of the trade. If you aren't already a member, I recommend joining the Guild of American Luthiers (I like that name and what it implies about old world guilds and craftsmanship).

I've learned one thing in the 10 years as a hobby builder (I don't consider myself a "luthier", I've only built 16 and I'm still making mistakes) - this is an incredibly generous community of really wonderful people who will help you in any way they can. Whatever else you do, have fun.

There are many routes to your goal... pick the one that feels right to you

Trial and error from books and internet is definitely slower than learning from a pro, but it's also a lot cheaper and more flexible. For example, I work in a tiny space and don't anticipate that changing anytime soon, so most of the methods I'd learn in a class wouldn't be usable anyway. And I like to build a wide variety of guitar-like things, so my methods are all designed for maximum flexibility (and fun), rather than productivity.

But if one of the people offering classes has a build process that looks good to you, and you have the means to recreate it in your own shop, then a class would definitely be worth spending some money on. But 18 grand is a huge amount. Guitar building pays very little, so you'll have to work long hours and be good at the business end of things to make that up anytime soon.

Oh, and sign up for the OLF classifieds... Allan Edie is auctioning some great soundboard wood this weekend, so get some while the gettin's good

I been there... Did it in Taiwan for a few years. Kinda sucked that my income was extremely unstable though... Lots of months where I depended on charitable giving because I made only 100 dollars that month and I needed 1000 dollars to pay rent and bills. When I came back to America I simply decided to go back to university because I really do not know how to get customers at all here (no networks really puts a lot of damper on things).

I do have a shop in my "dorm room" but because I live with others I really don't want to be having wood dust everywhere, so I just have a mill and a laser for hobby stuff. At least metal shavings don't travel 4 rooms away and laser fumes can be easily vented outside.

One thing that is very valuable though is the ability to get things done cheaply. It means being able to refret without spending over 200 dollars in Stewmac tools. Because the fact is you'll often be cash strapped. Also, find cheap materials to practice on. Instead of spending 3 dollars per nut/saddle blank at Stewmac buy from eBay for 25 dollars per 100. More practice means better proficiency.

I think networking is very important too, because when you got several established 30+ year veterans in your town nobody is going to care that you can do anything at all, they will always choose the veteran.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Whatever your long term goals might be, learning in person in a class setting is by far the most efficient path forward, IMO. Books are a good resource and there are some great video classes and tutorials, but you can't beat hands on instruction for getting where you want to go in the shortest time. I'm sure the Masters program you mentioned is thorough and extensive, but it's not necessary to spend anything like $18,000 to get good instruction that will get you going building good instruments. In my case, I took a class with nine students to build a classical guitar (~$800) and an intensive class with just two students to build a steel string guitar (~$3500). That was everything I needed to be building guitars of my own design on my own with no prior woodworking experience other than as a framer building houses.

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Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter

If you're in a hurry to learn and really want to try and make a career out of it, I'd recommend you get into some kind of training program or hands-on instruction situation. (I'd recommend it even if you aren't in a hurry, but the books and internet route can work, too.)

You are in Michigan, right? Shouldn't be too hard to find guidance. You can't swing a dead cat around there without hitting a luthier.

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George :-)

I would start by taking a short term class and then jump in and build a few instruments and see how you enjoy it. Then, if time and money are available maybe study more in-depthly with Bryan or whoever.
I wouldn't quit the day job unless your income is unnecessary.

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

Either find someone to apprentice under(which isn't easy most Luthiers would like someone with talent and/or skill) org to a school. There is no sense in going full out in the initial beginning. Take a small course or attend the GAL or ASIA conference to see what its all about. My first class that got me inspired to travel down the rabbit hole was a Ukulele class that only cost $600 and I walked away with a Ukulele at the end.

You don't need a crazy amount of tools in the beginning to build with. I built 5 Ukuleles in about 3 months when i first started so I knew i was going the "Full Monty" most people that dream of becoming a luthier actually don't pursue it for the long haul which is really what it takes.

I went to A.S.L. aka Charles Fox school and can't say enough good things about his classes. There are a lot of options with schooling such as ASL, Roberto Venn School of Luthiery , Robbie Obrien, Gallup, and many other I don't know about. I talked to a lot of Luthier's before choosing which school to attend. Kudos to the Gallup school because their shop foreman talked me out of going there do to my extensive wood working experience and Luthier experience ( I had built 12 Ukuleles before I was thinking about continuing my luthier education and ended going to A.S.L. . Also i saw Charles speak at GAL and immediately thought He would make a great instructor.

Check out this link to some good advice in choosing a school.
http://www.americanschooloflutherie.com ... chool.html

Talk to as many Luthier's as you can about which school they liked/disliked and why?

Oh and start browsing OLF, LC, there is about 10,000 topics,opinions and facts worth looking into.

Oh and one last thing. Being a Luthier is kind of like being a sailor............. if anyone actually and truthfully told you how much it was actually going to cost you, you might reconsider a different interest hahah

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https://www.instagram.com/fostinoguitars/
https://www.facebook.com/PuraVidaUkuleles/

There are no qualifications at all to become a Luthier, just state your name & put "luthier" after it. That's what I did 40 years ago, just hung up a sign.
Getting people to believe it is the hard part, but you have to start somewhere.

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https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100008907949110

Another huge fan of taking a course. A good one will shave many years off your learning curve. Build a few kit guitars to make sure it lights your fire and then take a course and start building from scratch.

As mentioned, a well structured 7-10 day course may be all you need. Your kit guitar experience will help you get a lot more out of it.

I also took the Charles Fox course in 2004 and it was fantastic. I am sure there are others just as good.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Get a pile of really cheap junked guitars and guitar parts. The kind you see out by the curb on junk pick up day. Learning how to make guitars have good playing action is much more relaxing if you are not working on a valuable instrument. Not to disparage the idea of taking classes, but also try to meet the folks close to you who fix guitars.

I see that kits are mentioned as a starting point -- so I will shamelessly mention that KMG is the only kit producer that offers the "Complete Success Kit Packages" -- They are designed to be a mini Luthier's course sending the builder down the correct path to understanding the essential construction geometry. Many have used our system as a spring board into professional status. Here's the progress of a recent client -- beginning less than a year ago. The first is the guitar in the "Success Kit Package" the second a KMG kit, then off to scratch building.

http://acousticguitarconstructionforum. ... =24&t=2299

http://acousticguitarconstructionforum. ... =24&t=2341

http://acousticguitarconstructionforum. ... =24&t=2389

http://acousticguitarconstructionforum. ... =24&t=2432

http://acousticguitarconstructionforum. ... =24&t=2520

http://acousticguitarconstructionforum. ... =30&t=2546

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

After you ask yourself what you want to get out of building guitars.
Ask yourself how you learn.
Some people need to have a lot of individual instructions. Some learn well in a group environment.
Some can get everything they need from reading a book or watching a video.
We all learn differently

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Say what you do, Do what you say.

Luthiery , is not for the feint of heart.Takes a lot of hard work ,love sweat and tears.But if it/s the only thing you want to do stick with it and see how far it takes you

"I have been watching tons of videos on YouTube on the subject and I almost feel like I would be better off just getting some books and watching the videos and slowly build up a tool collection (I would be starting with nothing pretty much) and learn through trial and error."

That might be a good way for you to start. Build a few instruments to find out if you like the "mechanical" part of the work. A lot of building is fairly mindless drudgery. You have to like that part too.

Is the end goal to build guitars for self-satisfaction, to build them for secondary income, or to build them as your primary source of income?

I would make an intro budget. Get a kit. Subscribe to a video course like Robbie O'Brien's. Consider getting "the book" from Trevor Gore, at least the "Build" volume. Design is a little much at this part of the journey.

See if it's something you enjoy. And keep hanging out on the forum. By then you'll have a better idea of the best path for you.

I taught for five years, and I'm a big fan of progression in pedagogy. You don't want to start in the deep end. You want to start small and simple to get some things under your belt before journeying in a little deeper. I think a kit is probably the best way to go because you'll get to focus on some things without worrying about the others.

Anthony, you never mentioned woodworking experience If you plan on learning luthiery , through books ,tapes internet etc.I would highly recommend taking a hands on woodworking shop class to familiarize yourself with all the power and hand tools , you will need to succeed in your craft. I taught shop and did quite a bit of woodworking before taking the plunge

I have some woodworking experience, but it's been a long time (over 20 years).

I've decided I'm going to start collecting the tools I will need to put together a kit and see how that goes. I decided on a ukulele kit since I kind of want one anyway, and they are the least expensive (that way if I screw it up royally I won't be out much).

If I go to a school is likely I can get the whole thing paid for (maybe not the $18k one though), but I'm waiting on an email from somebody to find out. I can definitely do it if the school will accept financial aid (which comes down to Roberto-Venn and a couple community colleges).

Lots of good info here, it's given me a lot to think about. I think starting with that kit might be a good idea. Heck, maybe I'll hate doing it... swapping out a nut and some pickups is one thing, but... lol

Thanks for the replies!

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Pat

I learned everything right here on the OLF!

(That's a joke)

But I did learn everything here. If u are patient, you can learn a lot from the excellent forum members on this site. Buy a few kits and see how they are put together.

Mike

Here's one I built with help on this forum!

When I started, I had zero experience. But I had wood skills. Also, I'm an engineer with good ability to grasp complex geometry. None of that is required, it just helped. I think over the years I've invested 7-8k in tools and jigs. And I built several kits (another $1500??). That's still quite a bit les than your $18,500 course. To date, I've sold 10-12 of these. And I've more than made my investment back.

My first kit guitar pretty much sucked. My second was much better. I used a local woodworking shop for the military and contractors to build up my jigs. I didn't own a drill press, bandsaw, table saw, thickness, and drum sander until my third build (also a kit). Keep it simple. Buy a highly serviced kit (John hall at blues creek guitars).