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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:58 pm 
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I'm going to install a K&K Pure-mini pickup in a guitar I'm building. A 1/2 inch Forstner bit is recommended by the instructions because it will give the cleanest hole. I have the idea that Forstner bits should be used in a drill press at slow speed because they can bind. The drill press isn't an option in this case. Maybe a 1/2 inch Forstner bit is ok to use in a hand drill? I also have an old brace I could use or I could just go with a 1/2 inch brad point bit. Any of you who have installed end pin jacks in a previously undrilled tail block have any opinions on this? Thanks.

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Last edited by J De Rocher on Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:30 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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I much much much prefer a step up bit.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:06 pm 
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I install those all the time and have always used a ½" brad point. Get a good quality one (I use the ones from LeeValley). It drills very clean holes. I wouldn't recommend a Forstner bit in a hand drill.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:08 pm 
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1/2" brad point, very sharp and slow. I've done it hundreds of times this way.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:30 pm 
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I've also had really good success with a step drill.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:53 pm 
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I bought one of these from SM.

http://www.stewmac.com/Luthier_Tools/Ty ... eamer.html

It does a flawless job! I pre-drill with a 1/4" brad point, then follow with the reamer.

Cheers, M


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:55 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Twist drills are inappropriate for the job in my opinion because they can be prone to blow-out (both on the inside and outside surfaces). Brad points are less susceptible to this than a plain jobber bit, but any drill with a twist will still hold potential to want to climb or screw in, which leaves potential for trouble. Not as big a risk on a virgin block (certain doom when enlarging a pre-drilled hole), but I would still never use any type of twist drill for this job.

Forstner bits eliminate the risk of wanting to screw in and blowing out, but they are also not designed to ensure a perfectly straight hole, as they do not have any real length to ensure consistent guide.
Of course either of thes options can work just fine if you are careful and stable, but they also come with some level of risk.

For a bare end with no pre-existing pin hole, I prefer to start with a step drill up to 15/32", then clear it out all the way through with a reamer (the StewMac endpin jack reamer is worth buying if you plan to do this more than once or twice). Straight partially fluted cutters and reamers are the best tools for this type of job to ensure a straight clean hole and leave surfaces clean on both sides.

I also only cut to 15/32" diameter, never to 1/2".

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 11:05 pm 
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Thanks for the replies. The stepped reamer looks like a good option, although a pricey one.

Out of curiosity, what kind of step drill bit do you use to drill a 1/2 inch hole all the way through the tail block? The bits I've seen are those conical ones with small steps between diameters. On those, if the largest diameter step was 1/2 inch, it looks like it would drill a 1/2 inch hole only about 1/4 to 1/2 inch deep before the chuck would hit the wood.

I do have a good 1/2 inch brad point bit.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 11:43 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Michaeldc wrote:
I bought one of these from SM.

http://www.stewmac.com/Luthier_Tools/Ty ... eamer.html

It does a flawless job! I pre-drill with a 1/4" brad point, then follow with the reamer.

Cheers, M


Me too. That StewMac reamer is the goods.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:03 am 
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The StewMac reamer is worth every penny.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:15 am 
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Here's a series I posted on Facebook several years ago.

Quote:
Endpin jacks seem such a simple thing to install, but neglect to observe just a few key points, and the results can range from disappointing to disastrous.

Attachment:
jack1.jpg


StewMac makes a fantastic reamer specifically for fitting endpin jacks. It first tapers up to a straight section of 15/32" diameter, then steps up to a full 1/2". This larger 1/2" diameter section should never be used for standard endpin jack holes, though unfortunately it often is.

Attachment:
jack2.jpg


Pretty much all endpin jacks measure to 15/32" or 12mm, which are essentially the same, give or take a few thousandths. Here an Italian jack, a Switchcraft, and a Chinese import all measure the same within a few thousandths of an inch.

Attachment:
jack3.jpg


Just as importantly, the outer nut that threads on to the small diameter of the jack has a bearing surface that measures an even 1/2".

Attachment:
jack4.jpg


Here we have a jack mounted in a 1/2" hole. With this completely unnecessary slop in the fit there is now no side support if the cable or jack gets bumped or pulled. Here the entire load must be carried only by the washers on the inside and outside edge.

Furthermore, the 1/2" bearing surface of the nut is now bearing down on a very thin washer over a 1/2" hole, resting on the wood only around its flimsy perimeter beyond the bearing diameter of the nut.

These two issues combined (oversized hole and unsupported gap behind loaded area of the washer) are a recipe for disaster.

Attachment:
jack5.jpg


Here's a washer pulled from a guitar with an endpin jack installed in such a way. The 1/2" nut over the 1/2" hole just collapsed the washer, loosened the jack, and damaged the finish and end wedge as seen in the first picture.

Attachment:
jack6.jpg


Avoiding these problems is quite simple. First, holes should be reamed to 15/32". Endpin jacks will still fit easily in to this hole, but will be a snug fit supported by the sides should the jack ever get pushed or pulled sideways.

Secondly, the nut on the inside is adjusted so that when the outer nut/washer is tight to the wood, it will also tighten down against the large inner diameter. This way there is no gap behind the washer at all, and the nut can be tightened up quite firmly without collapsing or placing any excessive pressure on the finish or wood.

Attachment:
jack7.jpg


Adjustment of the inner nut has to be fairly precise for this job, which necessitates a simple way to pull the jack in and out of place during checks and readjustments.

Here I'm using the butt end of a 1/4" bell hanger drill bit to fish the jack in and out, though any 1/4" rod will work just fine. Stick the rod in through the hole, then reach in to the soundhole to fit the jack on the end.

Attachment:
jack8.jpg




continued....


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:19 am 
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Quote:
Then the jack can be easily pulled in to place, checked, and moved back to the soundhole to make small adjustments to the inner nut as needed.

The goal is to adjust so that just as the outer nut is really beginning to tighten up firmly to the sides, you should feel a sudden stop as it hits the large diameter of the jack. Then you can give it an extra bit of torque, locking the nut firmly in place without putting any additional pressure on the finish or sides.

This can mean having to insert, check, remove, adjust, and repeat a few times to get the inner nut adjusted just right, but it is certainly worth the minute or two of extra work.

Attachment:
jack9.jpg


Then once the outer nut is firmly fastened on, it's time to install the strap button cover. For tightening or loosening these, a simple piece of thick rubber can be a handy tool. Just drill a hole and cut a slot in it, and you have a simple non-marring button wrench to provide an extra bit of grip to lock it in place.

Do all these things, and your endpin jack should stay reliably in place without any worries or hassles.

Attachment:
jack10.jpg





More than what you asked, I know, but I hate abbreviating previously constructed slideshows. ;)

You can see the reasoning here for preferring a 15/32" hole as opposed to the common 1/2" with all its unnecessary slop. You could buy a 15/32" brad point, or step drill and 15/32" straight reamer to finish it out, but by the time you do that why not just get a StewMac reamer, and then you will have it on hand next time you need to install a pickup (plus you'll be able to safely enlarge existing holes, not just drill new ones).

Do three more pickup installations in your lifetime, and the tool will have cost you under 20 per install. Do more than that, and it's all butter. For a small production custom tool that does the job perfect every time, this reamer is really a steal.


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These users thanked the author David Collins for the post: SteveSmith (Fri Jan 23, 2015 9:02 am)
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:28 am 
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Great post, David, with clear photos and explanation. It's very much appreciated.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:33 am 
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Thanks. I may go a bit overkill on some things, but the StewMac reamer is really a good buy in my opinion if you anticipate installing more than one or two pickups. Seems pricey at first, but after using it a few times it's an investment you won't regret.

Perhaps one of these days I can get my K&K install tool to market to make everyone's job even simpler.

Image

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 5:18 am 
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In all the guitars I build now I install a jack as a precaution. This was undertaken after someone did a DYI of a jack on one of my guitars...........not pretty........!!! Don't put in a pick-up but at least the jack is there for anyone interested. I use a brad point bit and it is 15/32" and these are from Lee Valley. They have brad points in 1/64" increments.
Tom

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:32 am 
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The 15/32" reamed hole size that David advocates is also pretty important to not having the jack come loose as they seemingly all do if not installed properly. The extra hole size of 1/2" permits a loosening jack to move and loosen itself even further.

Reaming is much safer than drilling regardless of what kind of bit is used for this application. I have a nice Martin in the shop at present where the jack installation buggered up the visible areas around it when it tore up the wood. Client said the pup was installed at a big box music store and they damaged his guitar.... This did not have to happen..

+ another one on the Stew-Mac Reamer, expensive - perhaps, quality tool - absolutely, well thought out including the 15/32 step - roger that. See Frets.net for a recent discussion on the price of Stew-Mac tools- seems those of us in the trade who make our livings with this stuff love Stew-Mac and do not find them pricey, hobbyists may. Tell me the next time you go to the dentist and he wants to work on one of your teeth with a pair of Channel-locks..... how would that make you feel.... ;) OK, maybe an imitation pair of Channel-locks..... :)


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:31 am 
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DO NOT USE A DRILL BIT
there are 2 ways to do this without damage.
A step up bit, This cuts the hole neatly and in graduated steps. Once the appropriate size is reached you can than through dill the block.
B start with a smaller hole say about 1/4 in , then use a counter sink bit and chamfer the corner of the hole , check for proper diameter then drill through

A drill bit in most cases will pull the tail piece up from the chips coming out. Not a pretty sight.

I also place tape before I drill.

step up bits are not that expensive and you will find them handy to have around the shop.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 9:56 am 
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bluescreek wrote:
DO NOT USE A DRILL BIT

A drill bit in most cases will pull the tail piece up from the chips coming out. Not a pretty sight.



Kind of like this one that came in (too late) the other day -

Attachment:
image.jpg


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:14 pm 
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Thanks again to everyone for the very helpful comments and tips. I placed an order for the reamer last night. I'm glad I asked for input on this before doing as the installation instructions recommend.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:22 pm 
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I must have missed the point somewhere in the thread. The original poster said he is building a guitar. Why he would need a reamer to enlarge a hole in a guitar does not add up to me. If it was for a guitar that is in the completed state I could understand. Do we use reamers to enlarge holes for tuners? A brad point drill is what is needed for the purpose of the original post. As Forrest Gump said " I won't say any more about that".
Tom

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:33 pm 
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Tom West wrote:
Do we use reamers to enlarge holes for tuners?

Yes


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:58 pm 
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Ken: Now you made me break my promise to shut up......! Would you please explain to me why you would use a reamer....???
Tom

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:04 pm 
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Not sure if this was said so I'll add it. After reaming the hole for the input jack to size it's also a good idea to break that edge and lightly champher the edge as a hedge against finish chipping in the future.

I use reamers too to fit tuner bushings and this way we can sneak up on it....

A word if I may please about after market producers using golf tees as installation tools.... and not advising folks of some of the less risky ways to achomplish installation. If it comes to pass that you were provided with ALL of the information, for better or worse, as to what can happen with say a cheap, dull drill bit when drilling for the input jack it would likely scare the heck out of folks to the degree that they may pass on that product.... So likely no one wants to be first in the "educate the client" department because it can impact the bottom line.

It's understandable, makes perfect sense in that they wish to sell more product, but..... still questionable in my view especially when you look at the last pic above that Dave posted. That guitar is being picked up later today and the steward, owner was not pleased at what the last shop did to his ax....


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 11:00 pm 
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I've always put the StewMac reamer in a drill at medium speed. Do any of you guys do the whole thing by hand?

I usually drill a 1/4" hole and widen to a taper by hand with an end pin reamer followed by the SM device in the drill.

Not uncommon for me to get a very small finish lift along part of the edge. I usually chamfer it slightly and wick in some retarder or Acetone with a 25G needle. Just raising a drop on the end of the needle and carefully touching it to the edge of the lift.

I've actually never tried it by hand, for those that have, does it keep the edge of the finish perfect?

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 10:31 am 
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ImageImageImageImage
I have a confession to make.............I'm a liar.......said I was not going to say any more about this but here I am. Tried to download a group of pictures but this is what I ended up with. But it does show a hole drilled with a brad point drill in a guitar being BUILT not RETROFITTED and I think it does show a reasonable example of a good hole. Now I think this is what Jay was after but it appears he has been convinced to go buy a tool that at this time he may not need and may never need again unless he is going to modify guitars already built. There are tons of good info in the thread but it may have drifted away from Jay's original point. Just my opinion.
Tom

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These users thanked the author Tom West for the post: TimAllen (Tue Jan 31, 2017 4:19 pm)
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