Official Luthiers Forum!

I am looking for tuning machines that are better than the standard gotoh 510/schallers etc. classical guitar tuners seem to be of a higher quality than steel string tuners, with handmade options. Wondering if any of you have found any with a handmade vibe

How about these?
http://www.stewmac.com/product/images/1 ... gheads.jpg
Tom

_________________
A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

I've only ever handled one set of Rodgers steel string tuners but they were by far the nicest machines I have ever seen. Maybe the most expensive too! Seemed worth the money.
There is a good article in the GAL magazine (I don't remember exactly which issue) about their setup.

_________________
Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

I've always felt that tuners are the most overpriced items in luthiery. What are they but a few pieces of stamped metal with worm gears, rollers and handles (buttons, whatever you want to call them). I can buy an amazing cordless variable speed electric drill which is vastly more complex for less than the price of an ordinary set of tuners. I use Der Jung tuners from Taiwan since they are the cheapest quality tuners I can buy. I used to use Gotoh when I could still buy them for $12 a set but I won't pay the price they charge now and Der Jung are just as good. I keep a bunch of tuners in stock and guarantee them to my customers for life. I have never had to replace a set of Der Jung.

A few years back I built a classical that had a set of Jorg Graff tuners. One of his really nice fancy sets. Engraved sterling silver, with real gold plating and solid black MOP buttons. Cost enough to cover materials for 3 regular guitars. The customer wanted something special and he got it.

For my regular stuff I prefer Gotoh 510 series or their open back vintage style. Have also used a lot of their 300 series tuners.

_________________
Josh House

Canadian Luthier Supply
http://www.canadianluthiersupply.com
https://www.facebook.com/canadianluthiersupply?ref=hl
House Guitars - Custom Built Acoustic Instruments.
http://www.houseguitars.com

Burton: As nice as tuners like Rodgers work and look I think they are way past the point of diminishing returns. For those that want the absolute best.........no question, but for most of us practical folk? I even think Waverly tuners are somewhat down the same road. Just my opinion of course as I put the last screw in my Grover Sta-Tite tuners.
Tom

_________________
A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

I've used a lot of brands and types over the years.
What I don't get is all the engraving - it does nothing, and makes them cost more.
I don't even think it looks good.

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

The engraving is one thing I really like. A beautiful instrument is like a beautiful woman, they deserve a little jewelry.
Rodgers are expensive though

My guitars are given away as gifts, not sold. I think that's already fairly generous of me, so I feel justified sticking to moderately priced tuning machines. :-) My favorites in that realm are the open-backed Grover Sta-Tites. I like their vintage looks, they feel smooth and solid to me and they get the job done. That said, I can certainly feel a tactile difference between those and the Waverlies I have on a couple of my personal guitars. There are some very fine options available (Rogers, Alessi, etc.) which I hope to try out one day.

_________________
George :-)

Hi Tom,

I don't completely disagree- I've never used them and don't try to talk my customers into them. If they asked me what the best are, though, it would be no question. I also have not seen all kinds of other machines of course.

Compared to other high end tuners I think the Rodgers are much nicer. Sam mentioned a handmade aspect and (I could be wrong here, but-) I don't think many of those other high end tuners have the worm and worm gear made in house and not purchased as stock. That was the thing I noticed about the Rodgers, the mating of the 2, and the gear tooth form, are simply nicer. It is a nice detail and very well done. It is a luxury tuning machine, there is no question. For lots of builders, though, making everything just so is how you sell expensive guitars and how you survive doing it for a living. I don't think there is any shame in supporting someone else working to make things as good as they can possibly be. Especially if the customer appreciates it and you get a little bit out of the upcharge.

And of course also no shame in using lower cost, but perfectly functional, machines.

Regarding Waverlies- They have a bronze gear, are made in the USA and are sold by StewMac. I'm into all of those things- Don't love their engraving though. They are expensive but buy enough stuff from StewMac and suddenly they are not so expensive........ I don't qualify for that but I wish I did!

I have repeated this quote before, but if the rule of "the first 90% is 5% of the work" holds true then things doubling in cost for small improvements is not so crazy. People getting compensated for striving to and making ridiculously nice things is something we, of all people, should support. IMHO of course.

_________________
Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

I offer Waiverly tuners as a standard feature on all of my guitars, even the base models. I figure that if someone has the desire and refined taste to have a commissioned instrument made for them, they deserve a very nice set of tuning machines. I'm a musician for a living, and I find that tuning machines are some of the most overlooked pieces on a guitar. A great set of machines, stay in tune, allow for super precise adjustments without slop, and just plain feel nicer in both weight and looks. I purchase them in sets of three or more from Stewmac so that I qualify for the "bulk" discount ($160ish vs $200.) The way I see it, they cost me about $100 more per guitar than if I used a far inferior set of Grovers. In the end, that's a profit I'm willing to miss out on in order to not feel like I'm skimping out on my instruments.

With that said, I also really like the Gotoh 510 21:1 machines, and if someone prefers a closed back tuner, I recomend them.

_________________
Chris Alvarado
www.ChrisAlvaradoLive.com
www.Driftwood-Guitars.com

The Sloane/Waverly are very good for function/price, especially if you live in the US. With shipping and taxes that advantage is somewhat lessened if you live in Europe - it can add some 30% to the price. I do like the slim profile of the Sloanes. They are a cast engraved plate but at least they are cast in a material that ages nicely.
Over the last few years the Rubners have improved somewhat. I'm referring to the type that have the teflon bearing. The premium Gotoh are also very good.
These are examples of what I term mid priced tuners. If you are prepared to pay quite a bit more then your options suddenly increase.

I've been using rubners on my classicals, and I like them. That is what got me thinking about tuners actually. Classical guitars have timer options ranging from made in China for ten bucks to slogans amd rubners I. The $150-$200 range to the handmade at $500 and up. Steel string tuner options are a little more limited unless you want waverlys, and now thanks to burton I can dream about rodgers tuners.

Burton: Well said. I gathered from your post that Rodgers generate their own worm and worm wheel sets. That surprises me since they look like a very small operation. One would require a gear generator to do anything of quality.Or maybe I'm out of my league, I'm use to the making of much larger sets. Anyway they do a super job by the looks of things.
Tom

_________________
A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

Josh that headstock and tuners looks amazing! Great job.

For steel string Martin style guitars I prefer Grover Sta-tites since the are affordable, look great, and most importantly function very well. I think they turn easier with less slop than Waverly's. For bouzouki's I prefer Gotoh 510 minis which have an 18:1 gear ratio to really dial in the paired strings, and they look great.

I am mostly sure that is the case- The father was a machine tool designer at Myford and in the GAL article (Spring 2012, worth the read) you can see a lot of nice tooling in the shop. His son is also part of the business (I think in Nova Scotia, actually) and designed some CNC engraving machines specifically for the plates. It may seem like I know a lot about them but I am just remembering from the article. I was impressed by it!

I have dreams of making tuning machines and have been rebuilding some tooling in order to attempt it. I expect it will be a long process to end up with something nice. Hopefully it will be worth it!

_________________
Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

Obviously not Rodgers but they were making worm gear Guitar tuners in around 1830'ish. A good 'tooled up' modern engineer should be able to do the same.

Yes, making simple worm gears can be kind of quick, especially with the availability of high quality modern taps.

This is not the best but just the first that came up in a quick search-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0o3W4_LRBw

It is when you get specific about the tooth profile and perfect mating that it gets trickier.

I've seen some of the early machines used on pre-1900 Martins and no one would accept them by today's standards. There were better ones of course, the machines made by Ashborn were pretty nice. I'm sure there were others too. There is no doubt the technology has existed to make near perfect ones for a long long time.

_________________
Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

Gets the job done but certainly explains a lot of the cost.....! And he still has to cut the worm. Contracting these out would seem more in line but they would not be completely done by him. Certainly a very skilled craftsmen and a pleasure to see someone of his skill.
Tom

_________________
A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!