Official Luthiers Forum!

Taking a phrase from Kurt Vonnegut.....

Received an email from a prospective client who wants ivory, nut and saddle made for his Taylor.

I wrote the guy back explaining that commercial trade in ivory (elephant) is now completely banned in the US and that bone is a better alternative. Sure there are some rare exceptions but it's simply easier (and safer...) to stop using the stuff....

We receive requests such as these every so often and what I find interesting is that this one will go like all of the last ones. What will happen is the prospective client will indicate that he was unaware of the change and want to proceed with bone instead. No one will dig in...., no one will argue...., no one will even go elsewhere because we were the bringer of bad news. We actually may have prevented this guy from a nightmare at an International border that he actually paid good money to get himself into....

Instead people simply do not know and nuances of our trade that we must know, understand, and live by need never be an obstruction to getting or doing business.

It might be a good idea, and that's why I am bring this up, to consider your pitch when the day comes that your commission clients fancy or think that they fancy ivory. It's usually simply a matter of education and besides a little discussion with a good client is always better than prison.....

Thanks and if the client does not react how I suspect that he will it will because 1) my approach was flawed, 2) hemorrhoids..., or 3) he should go elsewhere....

I'll let ya know....

Or he could be stupid and not know the diff between ivory and bone.
It happens, ya know.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

I realized that while I knew where ivory came from, I really didn't know the structural/material quality differences between it and bone, so I just looked it up. Thanks for stirring up my curiosity!
Mike

That can certainly happen, someone using the term "ivory saddle" as a generic for any natural saddle, much like people say Kleenex in referring to any box of snot rags. Good point!

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

I am curious about the legal status of Fossil Mammoth Ivory. I believe that it has been banned in the states of New York and New Jersey only. David Warther, who appears to be very knowledgeable in the sale of Ivory continues to offer pins, nuts, saddles and bridge blanks in both Fossil Mammoth and Pre-Ban Elephant Ivory and maintains its legality within the USA with the exception of the previously mentioned states. http://www.guitarpartsandmore.com/

I have used fossil Walrus & Mammoth Ivory prior to the recent changes in legality and wonder if fossil materials are an ethical and legal alternative to Elephant Ivory.

Mike Franks
http://www.mjfranksguitars.com
http://www.facebook.com/mjfranksguitars

Using fossil ivory isn't going to make anything extinct so I don't see any ethical issue.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Given the labyrinth of laws you could always just say you can't afford the legal work to ensure your compliance and decline saying there are better materials anyhow.

I use bone for my nuts and saddles. In today's world I can't imagine anyone wanting ivory on their guitar.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well Mr. Ivory never wrote back so either I scared him off, offended him, or his Comcast is down..... If he does I will let you know what happens because that was the entire point of this thread - how to deal with new regulations and Lutherie...

Hermit that's exactly our position as well - it's not worth it for us. We are not trying to be crusaders in the least... just protecting the bottom line. Good suggestion, thanks for making it!

Lonnie good on ya and I hope you are doing well my friend.

Steve buddy that's my take as well but others are going to suggest that complete cessation of any demand for a material is likely going to have the biggest impact on drying up demand for it. I've got a stack of BRW in my shop that I'm just going to eat not wishing to break any laws etc. It once was my 401K......

Good point Mike! I wonder too and it does seem like fossilized, 2,000 year dead stuff from other species would not represent an issue. If anyone finds out please let us know?

Mike I., sure, quality cow bone from free ranging cows who use their legs is superior to Ivory in all respects IME. It's harder, denser, will last longer and if you get unbleached stuff it an be very pretty too often with a bit of a mottled look and figure. It's also WAY less expensive too... Martin switched from Ivory to bone on high end models decades ago.

Chris my thoughts exactly on the stupid thing and that's often the case with folks wanting what they want with no logic behind it. You worked with the electric guitar crowd for decades and have lots of experience with folks thinking that this or that will get them where they want to go tonally. I suspect that you will agree with me, hope so, that often just becoming a better player will solve some of these subjective tone issues...

Thanks folks and more to come it if comes at me....

The moral dilemma with using "preban" and fossilized ivory is that poached ivory gets falsified documentation to legitimize it. So even if you THINK you are using pre-ban ivory you may still be contributing to the market for poached ivory.

I'm just a hobby builder but I won't be using any ivory.

That's a good point and I could only see using pre-ban if it was for restoration of a valuable artifact - not sure how many guitars that might include. At that point I would think it important to make sure you are using a reputable source. I don't ever expect to do this kind of work in my shop either.

As far as the fossilized ivory is concerned what I have seen (not much, admittedly) didn't look anything like the old ivory piano keys and old ivory carvings I've seen. I was not aware that they could be confused.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Another issue is that, while it's theoretically possible to distinguish mammoth ivory from elephant, it's not always easy. Mostly, as I understand it, you rely on the end grain ring crossing angle, which is much different between the two. One problem comes when you don't have much end grain or can't see it. A bigger one is simply that a lot of the folks who are on the front lines of this, such as customs agents, may not have the training to distinguish them, or the time, for that matter. Even when law enforcement folks are wrong, they still are able to make life miserable, and there isn't much you can do about it. Thus the better part of valor here is just to avoid anything that can be easily mistaken for elephant ivory.

I doubt Alaskan fossil ivory could be banned due to Inuit livelihood.
I wonder who they sell their tusks to?

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wah
Wah-wah-wah-wah
Wah

"Another issue is that, while it's theoretically possible to distinguish mammoth ivory from elephant, it's not always easy. Mostly, as I understand it, you rely on the end grain ring crossing angle, which is much different between the two."

Perhaps we should only use the "Brazilian rosewood" icon for those , who like the wood, have been banned, rather than for those who have contributed much to the forum, lest we contribute to inflaming the lust for an endangered species. Where do we draw the line? Although something from a distance may look like a duck and quack like a duck it isn't always a duck. To the untrained eye polished bone also looks like ivory. Should we quit using bone to eliminate confusion on the part of untrained inspectors?

Maybe he emailed another maker that understands the law.
you saying "explaining that commercial trade in ivory (elephant) is now completely banned in the US" ... is just not true. A quick google search should give you a hand full of places where you can buy it tonight and have it shipped to you legally as long as you are not in NY or NJ. If it were illegal that would not be the case.

I agree bone is a better choice. I have never bought ivory and have no intentions of doing so. but if I wanted to do so it is not currently illegal(-NY or -NJ). I think it will be illegal soon though so if you want it get it while you can.

I did have plans to invest in some mammoth but I have changed my mind on that after seeing several states talk about making that illegal last year. I dont understand at all making mammoth illegal but its some who want that too.



Ivory has caused more damage to this place than rosewood , make it an ivory icon

Nightowl, the main point here is not one on the fine details of law and ethics, but common sense on running a business and protecting from liability. If you do want to get in to the legality, I would suggest it is not nearly so clear as you may see it. Yes, you can go online and buy ivory and have it shipped to you today no problem, but "legal" should be followed with a question mark, not a period. There is a complex quagmire of laws and regulations, some of which various departments are still figuring out how to implement, varying with degree of paperwork, crossing state lines, fashioning a piece of ivory in to a new state or form - it's a big mess right now, and I would say a good deal of work and trade with ivory currently going on every day is in fact completely illegal, but is simply being treated as business as usual until a few court cases come up to better clarify where the limits really lie.


I don't want to be involved in one of those defining cases, and by my read of the law, if I take a perfectly legal-to-own piece of documented pre-ban ivory, fashion it in to a new form as a nut, and accept money for this completed product, I will have violated several laws and exposed myself to unwanted liability. People do this every day and are still skating under the radar without any repercussions, but it is a game of Russian Roulette. I'm not much a fan of that game myself.

I see no reason to draw this in to a divisive discussion on law and ethics, but simply tips on client communications and protecting your business from liability. People come here every day to discuss woods and finishes and tools, but it is of great value to remind that if you want to keep focusing on the lutherie, none of this little stuff will matter if you find yourself caught up in a lawsuit over a $100 nut.

This is a discussion on how best to interact with clients to avoid exposing yourself to such liability, which under the right (or wrong) circumstances can be one of the most important things you learn to do.

Just some simple, practical business tips -
The customer is not always right.
You do not need to expose yourself to undue liability based on their arbitrary preferences.
Many clients will be appreciative of your insight and guidance in helping them avoid liability as an instrument owner.
Those who wish to pursue high liability choices in spite of your advice can go somewhere else, and it's generally best for you and your business to just let them go.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

Who's even got time to read this stuff? Plus state regulations --- And for what?

http://www.fws.gov/international/travel ... swers.html

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Ten Days ago on Sept 16 2015, California Senate Bill ab96 passed the state legislature by the vote of 62 yea 14 nay and 4 absent. This now goes to Governor Brown. He will sign it. Count on that 100%. This bill bans the use of all ivory in the state of California, mammoth included. With bans in CA, New York and New Jersey it begins to become unworkable to have mammoth ivory in your instruments. No matter that the beast has been dead 60,000 years.

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Michael F Smith
Goat Rock Ukulele
http://goatrockukulele.com

Or he was in law enforcement checking your knowledge of compliance, or maybe a radical Greenpeace member looking for an excuse to firebomb an easy target.

Probably not an easy target when the FBI and Federal Marshalls offices are right next door to us and our facility is covered by their cameras.

Anyway thanks folks and nice to see that we can discuss business considerations without getting political over ivory.

I'm with Al - best not to get involved and we most certainly don't have to either being up to our necks in business.