Official Luthiers Forum!

Some instructions for the cementing on of plastic bindings say coat binding ledge with cement first, let dry, then glue on the bindings.
Others seem to say just glue it on directly, with no pre-coat.
No indications of the cement discolouring the spruce, although I think a quick coat of shellac would be advisable just in case.
What do you guys do?

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Duco -- direct, nice clear glue line, never had any problems bindings or rosettes.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

I use Weldon 16 and make a huge mess with glue all over the place.
It sands off without leaving stains.
One of these days I'll experiment using acetone.
I tried CA but it discolored the binding.
Dan

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wah
Wah-wah-wah-wah
Wah

Is the plastic ABS/Bolteron, vinyl, or cellulose nitrate (ivoroid, tortoid, or plain old white and black)?

- If it's cellulose nitrate, we usually prime with acetone and glue with Titebond onto raw wood - other than jigs and fixtures, one of the few things we use Titebond for in this shop. It is a very easy method for cellulose nitrate binding, purfling, and wood or fiber purfings. Does not require grain to be sealed.

- There is a good thread over on MIMF about using CA for binding - particularly for complex binding schemes. I've helped on one guitar where the scheme was so complicated that the boss resorted to CA - as long as everything is sealed with shellac and there is no existing finish, it's pretty painless (unless you glue yourself to the guitar!).

- LMI FCA contact cement is my least favorite, but that and Weld-On 16 both have a good solvent for vinyl and ABS (methylene chloride and MEK, I think - definitely 'bites' into the ABS and vinyl - versus plain acetone, which does not bite all that well ABS or vinyl), and will hold onto wood and fiber about as well as Titebond. Does not require end grain to be sealed.

- When we glue ABS/Bolteron or vinyl, I was taught to strip off any surface agents with naptha, then an acetone wipe, allow to dry, then tooth with 400 grit...seems to help most glues get a better grip on the plastic, even if they don't do that well with a chemical bond.

Hope that adds to the list of possible adhesives - hopefully others will jump in about their favored adhesives and we will all learn just a little more than we knew yesterday! I thought one of the most interesting things I've read about binding materials and the relative difficulty of working with them and associated adhesives was Mario Proulx's comment in threads on other sites that he considered binding in a white plastic like ivoroid or white/black cellulose nitrate to be much more challenging than binding in wood. From what I have seen so far, I would agree.

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A constellation only takes shape when one maps the whole.
- Beth Brower

It's celluloid and weld on cement

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

I started using this (FCA) a couple years ago. Goes on very neatly with a brush, glues every type of plastic well, any squeeze out (which I now have much less of) sands/scrapes off easy:

http://www.lmii.com/products/finishing/ ... -adhesives

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"I've been had again"
Tim Benware
Creedmoor, NC

been using duco for 18 yrs. They all work. use what is best for you.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

I use no glue, on Stewmac ABS. Just brush the ABS with acetone for a few inches, press hard into its channel, tape in place and keep moving. The guitar I did this on has years of playing and carting around, as well as a few weeks in recording studios. The guitar has a NSW red cedar top and QLD maple back. No issues with either wood

Do we know why Martin ABS bindings from 70's and 80's vintage guitars frequently separate in the waist? Was that separation an adhesive issue or shrinkage issue, and if the former, what adhesive was used; if the later, was it adhesive-related? I've helped repair a few of these guitars and have to wonder why some ABS bindings die an early death, while others from same factory and same adhesive stay put.

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A constellation only takes shape when one maps the whole.
- Beth Brower

You could try the repair forum....

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

For Ivoroid, I have had satisfactory results with Duco but I prefer Titebond/acetone.

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Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from poor judgement.

For iveroid, I've used this - http://www.homedepot.com/p/Loctite-1-fl ... lsrc=aw.ds - twice. It worked well. My advice for using any plastic cement would be to use lots of it and make sure you have perfect contact. The longer the solvents can be on the binding wet for, the better they'll melt into the plastic. Also, I like to abrade the gluing side of the iveroid with 120. Make sure the joint is dust free.

To answer your questions - I wouldnt bother applying a coat of glue to the binding, then letting dry. But I can't see it hurting. And Ive never had ducco or ^that stuff leave stains.

That is a good suggestion, however, I think that Martin's problems with ABS binding might tell use something about what not to do on new construction. If Martin was using an ABS that is similar to today's Bolteron, and an adhesive that is similar or identical to those still in use, we should expect that we'd see the same issues over time.

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A constellation only takes shape when one maps the whole.
- Beth Brower

Thanks Nils, but if you look at the original post I said
I think the idea behind this may be that the porous wood could "suck" the cement in possibly leaving a dry glue joint if just used to directly glue the bindings.
Priming the binding ledge with cement should help prevent this happening, ensuring the next coat of glue gets some time to sufficiently dissolve the surface of the binding to give a good bond.
Good point on abrading the binding surface before gluing, I'll do that at the same time as I relieve the bottom inside edges.
Woodie, I saw your point, but just thought that someone there with repair experience who could answer your specific questions.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

For Weld On, FCA, or Duco I have put it in a small sryinge with an 18 or 20G needle. It makes it a lot easier to lay it in the channel with less mess.

I never tried Acetone/Tightbond. Can any of you guys give ore details, pitfalls, etc?

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Size the binding channel with hide glue and when dry use thin CA, it sticks to hide glue like it does your skin.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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"After forty-nine years of violin building, I have decided that the search for a varnish is similar to the fox hunt. The fun is in the hunt."
Jack Batts Maker and Repairer of Fine Violins

Older bindings have had different issues than today so it may not be a good comparison... The technology for plasticizers which make them pliable and easy to bend have advanced a long way since the 1970's - when they used simple mineral oils to make the plastics softer.... Over time - these chemicals would evaporate out of the plastic. Causing the plastic to shrink and become far more brittle and crack prone...

Thanks

This stuff comes in a small plastic bottle with a nozzle, and I just fitted a Whip Tip on it - very little mess.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Dr. Kennedy:

I am sorry - I did not see your question until just now, and it looks as though Mr. Cochran has not responded yet.

Re: Titebond/Acetone - We use it when rebinding cellulose acetate bound instruments, and on some new ivoroid/tortoid bound construction. The acetone softens the faces of the binding in contact with the wood, and an aliphatic resin or polyvinyl acetate glue then bonds more effectively with both the plastic binding and wood or fiber purflings and the channel. Because Titebond and other AR/PVA glues have poor penetration into end grain, it is not necessary to seal the surfaces, and with acetone or lacquer thinner causing the plastic to expand slightly (as with Duco and other solvent adhesives), it is our procedure to allow the bindings to dry for 2-3 days before scraping and sanding.

Like any binding or purfling plastics, the surface must be clean and free of any parting agents, and for butt-joins over the tail graft, we usually use a dab of acetone or Duco (which is acetone in a gel base) to weld the strips together and to avoid the possibility of the yellow dye in Titebond from discoloring the joint. LMI's white glue was apparently the glue of choice for this job, and I have been on several snipe chases to find a 1:1 replacement - no luck yet. The last bottle went bad a few months ago, and Gorilla White has not proven to dry as hard as the old LMI glue.

On repair work, we prime the cellulose nitrate well away from the instrument and use Titebond as might be expected, cleaning the squeeze-out away and taping to dry. The primary pitfall is the limitation to cellulose nitrate binding and wood, fiber, or cellulose nitrate purflings (no ABS or vinyl).

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A constellation only takes shape when one maps the whole.
- Beth Brower