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So I think I'm finally at the point where I have to set up a waiting list for my clients. It's funny, years ago I thought that this would mean I'd "made it"... Now all I see is another source of stress.
Most of what I build are commissions. Up to this point I've just asked for a 30% deposit (non-refundable) up front, I'd give them an estimated completion date, and the balance was due when the guitar was ready to be shipped. Pretty simple, and seems to have worked well. I could work at the pace I like, and organize each build to make best use of the limited space in my workshop.
However, when it gets to be over a year until the clients' guitar is going to be ready, I'm not so sure if this is the best way to go. I know I'd get nervous sending that much money away for that long. Also, having too many guitars in progress at one time is taxing the limited space in my brain.
So: how do you folks with waiting lists set them up? Do the clients pay a deposit just to get on the list? Do you not even think about their guitar until it's their turn?

As I understand guys like Monteleone and Triggs have 5 year waiting lists.
For you - no sweat.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Can't help you, Mike, other than to offer congratulations! This is, as they say, a First World problem.

If no one here has definitive advice that you can embrace, perhaps you could solicit input from former customers, asking what kind of policy would have made them feel comfortable. I imagine they'd be pleased to learn that their trust and investment in you was well placed, which should make them eager to help.

Good luck!

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George :-)

"Most of what I build are commissions. Up to this point I've just asked for a 30% deposit (non-refundable) up front, I'd give them an estimated completion date, and the balance was due when the guitar was ready to be shipped. Pretty simple, and seems to have worked well. I could work at the pace I like, and organize each build to make best use of the limited space in my workshop."

If that policy has worked for you in the past, why not continue it? Your "waiting list" could consist of a list of names that you would call (in the order they were taken) when you are ready to take on another project. No money to escrow, no hassle from people backing out and wanting a refund before you have started, no pressure to build to a time table. Less stress.

I would make the suggestion to have a good faith deposit to get on the list (say one to a few hundred dollars). That way your list will have "real" customers on it, but they won't have a lot of money on the line. If they've moved on by the time you get to them, you at least get a little money for your trouble. Without that, I think there is the possibility of an inflated waiting list of "maybes" that could dissuade real customers,
Mike

That's just it. I'd love to be able to call people up when it's their turn, but I'm afraid a lot of conversations will end up as "well I got tired of waiting so I went and bought a suchandsuch instead". I struggled for years to get enough customers, so I'm wary of losing potential clients. If the fish bites, you set the hook right away, so to speak. The question is, how do I arrange to reel him in later without losing him? Having some money invested as a token deposit would help keep everyone honest, on the one hand, but I also worry that it could be a bit of turnoff to others. So where is the balance point, or are there alternative solutions that work?

Pease visit this page from my website -- it is roughly equivalent to how all of us handle our commissions and it works just fine for both parties. I go a bit beyond what most other pro luthiers do in my price range by taking a smaller deposit and also clarifying that if there are delays, then they get a full deposit refund if they want to drop out. I currently have a 4 year wait list. Once you move beyond the hobby level and start doing this as more of a business -- you absolutely must have perfect understanding between yourself and your client. Good communication is essential -- and that starts with an ordering/refund policy.


http://fayguitars.com/Guitars/Prices/order.html

I really like your blurb on humidity on your website. As I have mentioned in some other threads I've actually had more problems with the guy that comes back with three humidifiers in his case and his house at 40%. Those cases can be 65-70%! Like you say, those swelled guitars don't ever seem to get back to baseline and I've had to tweak neck sets on a few.

I've modified my instructions to be more like yours warning not only of lack of humidification but also too much.

Selling through dealers is one way to avoid the anxiety of long waiting lists for commissions or playing hardball with a deadbeat if you find yourself not liking that feeling. You can still do "kind of" commissions for standard or near-standard models offering a client the right of first refusal for guitars headed for the wall somewhere. If your guitars are moving well at the dealer and their cut is a reasonable trade off for the exposure it's not a bad way to go for the part time builder.

That 's what my little lutherie career has pretty much evolved into.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Local classical builder here has a 12-year waiting list. I wish I had some of that problem, but not all of it!

Pat

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formerly known around here as burbank
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

I'm like you Mike, I want real customers and I really didn't want to get to the point where I had a waiting list. I have a 6-8 month wait from time of deposit. Once we decide what is going into the customers guitar the deposit is what it will cost me for the materials (non-refundable). That way there is a true commitment to purchase. I get a new commission about every month.

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"I've been had again"
Tim Benware
Creedmoor, NC

Until a lot of conversations actually DO end up that way, don't assume that it's going to happen. Or, discuss that possibility with the client right up front and take the argument away from them in that way. Just say: "I worry that people will get impatient and leave, but it hasn't happened yet. If it does, I still keep the deposit. It's essential to reserve a spot on my calendar."

In my advertising business I used to ask prospects: "May I be perfectly frank?". Once having gained their permission, I would say: "If I have to be the low bidder, I'm not a good fit for you. I don't want to be the low bidder. I just want to be the best value. And I happen to believe that "profit" is NOT a dirty word." Believe it or not, people respected this and accepted it. The few that didn't would never have been good clients for me, nor I a good provider for them.

Honestly and frank talk breeds trust and respect. Get permission before being bluntly frank.

Oh...I forgot to congratulate you on being in a very enviable predicament! Way to go!

Your approach sounds perfectly reasonable to me, and a waiting list is not dreaded, it is welcomed. A substantial deposit means they are serious and there is a penalty if they drop out. I hate it when someone on the waiting list drops off because more than likely the wood has been purchased, tuners purchased, case purchased and my head is in the groove to make the instrument. So my deposits are non refundable unless I can't deliver the instrument close to the agreed time. If they want a refund then tell them the deposit has already been spent on materials for their instrument so forgetaboutit. A deposit that covers the cost of materials is a good way to go, and make sure the customer knows that if he drops off then the deposit is not refundable. Yes waiting lists can be stressful, I prefer to make what I want to make, but it does guarantee an income and that is important if it pays the bills. I used to have a 3 year waiting list, but that disappeared during the GFC, and it is now back up to 1 year. No waiting list meant I did what was fun to do, but the stress came from an empty bank account and wondering how much longer I could keep going.

It wasn't too long ago we were fretting about the end of musical instruments. Market was sagging. Cheap imports were flooding in. But a lot of you have been doing great work. And the public sentiment is swinging our way. Yeah, there is stress. But it's a good thing. We are providing a service and s product people are starting to appreciate. Kudos to lance and the OLF.!we are a small part. But I too am busier than a one legged waitress at the IHOP.

Keep in mind that your current business philosophy is only going to go so far. Customers want complete and utter honesty about scheduling.

If your good and your customers like you they won't mind waiting. However what they will mind is if you ask for 30% up front and then are purposely lying about their slot on the build list.

If someone doesn't have the patience to wait a fair amount of time for a guitar thats being made for them they aren't the kinds of clients you want.

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https://www.instagram.com/fostinoguitars/
https://www.facebook.com/PuraVidaUkuleles/

I had a three year back log until I quite taking any orders for awhile. It was far too stressful for me. I'm not the kind of guy that can take a deposit and then just forget about the project for a couple of years.
I was talking to Jim Olson one time and he told me that if he were to die, his wife would have to come up with more than $100K in deposit money. Which made me panic a bit. So I went to the bank and opened a separate account strictly for deposit money. I didn't touch it until the guitar was shipped and approved. Which, then made the point of a deposit kind of pointless. Except more of a "good faith" deposit. But it did get rid of a bit of the stress of leaving my family with a debt to pay off if I were to leave this Earth.
That sucked for a short time (about two guitars) until the proverbial cycle of finances got caught up. Now I'm in a place where one customer's final payment pays the beginning of the next guitar, etc. and it works well for me.
Now I'm only 1 1/2 years out and don't worry as much as I did. But I still keep the same strict deposit policy. I don't touch it until the guitar is finished and paid for in full. Then I live off the whole lump sum.

Good point about placing deposits in an escrow account that is an absolute must --- my advice would be not to even commit to work beyond a one out build schedule. Or better yet don't accept commissions at all -- if your work is good its going to sell anyway. In my view financially compromised "committed time" in the unforeseeable future is the most stressful "debt" of all. The good news is, its a controllable situation -- make sure common sense and not ego is being used in the decisions.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

At one time I had a 4 year build list on mandolins and it was very difficult and stressful to climb out of that hole.
What I did was to charge $500 to get on the list. That was non-refundable as I figured it took about $500 to talk, email, figure it all out and do the contract.
When it was time to start a build, I would charge 40% minus the original $500 and get the remaining 60% before shipping.

I can't remember the thread but one of the most interesting ideas that I read here on the OLF regarding waiting lists was that getting on the list only gives you a place in line but doesn't lock in the price. When the wait lister's name gets to the top, they're then offered the current rate. I can't remember if there was a deposit involved or not.

I wish I could find the thread - apparently this strategy was formed because a few luthiers had committed to a low price and by the time they got to a build deep in the wait list, the used market for their guitars had soared. Customers were buying the instruments for a 5 year old price and immediately flipping them to make more money off it than the luthier building it.

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

That's a good point, and a good argument for making sure the waiting list stays short. I've tried to manage my workload by raising prices fast enough that the list stays short. It almost works, but leaves me pretty exposed to broader economic forces. To complicate things, I'm in canada but most of my clients are americans, so exchange rates can go in unexpected directions. Sometimes I go a few months without a new client and I get nervous. And then a whole bunch show up. But I guess that's the nature of the business.
Sounds like my current strategy isn't so bad. Taking a deposit right away, putting the money in an escrow account (I hadn't done that yet, it's a good idea), being honest with the clients about the wait time, and then having the mental discipline to not worry about it until it's time to build their guitar.

Never thought about that. But ya, locking in a price for 2021 seems risky for a plethora of reasons. Well, unless I was charging five digits per!

I know one thing though; if I had a 5 year list, I would be the proud owner of a wide belt and at least some sort of cnc!

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Pat