Official Luthiers Forum!

Owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Thu Jul 24, 2025 11:25 pm


All times are UTC - 5 hours


Forum rules


Be nice, no cussin and enjoy!




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Martin Authentic ad
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 6:28 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:07 am
Posts: 802
Location: Cobourg ON
First name: Steve
Last Name: Denvir
City: Baltimore
State: ON
Zip/Postal Code: K0K 1C0
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Just got the new Fretboard Journal today, and on the back is an ad for Martin's OM-28 Authentic 1931.

Boy, they weren't lying about the "authentic" part. A 2-tone top that screams runout.

I realize that back in the old days, they weren't necessarily picky about top woods.

But when you're charging, what, 5, 6 thousand for a guitar?

Thoughts?



These users thanked the author JSDenvir for the post: CraigG (Thu Feb 11, 2016 9:27 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Martin Authentic ad
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 7:10 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:32 pm
Posts: 3470
First name: Alex
Last Name: Kleon
City: Whitby
State: Ontario
Zip/Postal Code: L1N8X2
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
My thinking is that only a 1931 OM-28 made in "31 is authentic. If the original had the bridge misaligned or misplaced, would you do that to keep it "authentic"? Not likely, so no, I wouldn't use runout tops. That's just me, though.
I like making Mission style furniture, and I always call it that, because it isn't the real thing.

Alex

_________________
"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker



These users thanked the author Alex Kleon for the post: DannyV (Thu Feb 11, 2016 12:44 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Martin Authentic ad
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 8:51 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:10 pm
Posts: 2764
First name: Tom
Last Name: West
State: Nova Scotia
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Steve:
Have a look at the 1,500,000th Martin guitar. It seems that runout is not a detriment for Martin. There have been tons of guitars built with runout and lots of them sound just fine. But for me it's a big turn off in the looks department to say nothing about what may be lost tonally.
Tom

_________________
A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Martin Authentic ad
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 7:42 am 
Offline
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:49 am
Posts: 13631
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
First name: Hesh
Last Name: Breakstone
City: Ann Arbor
State: Michigan
Country: United States
Status: Professional
Food for thought: Can anyone hear runout? beehive beehive pizza

I've seen pre-war Martins with runout and it's not exclusive to any specific era of guitar production. Something that's going against the grain... pardon the pun.... for today's reproducers of vintage instruments is the availability of high grade in the cosmetic sense Adi. It's far more difficult to source these days although it's looking better than when I started in this madness over a decade ago.



These users thanked the author Hesh for the post: Shaw (Tue Feb 16, 2016 9:50 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Martin Authentic ad
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 8:02 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Sat May 19, 2007 11:03 am
Posts: 1737
Location: Litchfield MI
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
What Hesh said --- I doubt there's anyone that put their hand made guitar in a crusher after a photo shoot revealed the reflective phenomenon. BTW take a look at the McPherson ($10000) ads -- sound board grain joint conversion on some looks pretty bad. Not to mention what appears to be run-out as well. Oh -- just a reminder, that it was not too long ago when what we now call "Bear Claw" went straight to the dumpster.

Anyway here's something useful from Bill Cory

http://www.nichebooks.com/guitarpix.pdf

_________________
Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/



These users thanked the author kencierp for the post: Shaw (Tue Feb 16, 2016 9:50 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Martin Authentic ad
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 8:56 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2004 11:25 pm
Posts: 7207
Location: United States
A little runout won't kill a guitar. A lot of runout like on some of those high-figured redwood tops will definitely kill a guitar.
Old Martins frequently had some runout, so I'm not sure why this is an issue.

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."



These users thanked the author Don Williams for the post: Shaw (Tue Feb 16, 2016 9:51 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Martin Authentic ad
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 9:13 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:10 pm
Posts: 2764
First name: Tom
Last Name: West
State: Nova Scotia
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Hard to get a perfect set, almost every set will have some . Now lets all show the ones we've built with runout.
Tom

_________________
A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Martin Authentic ad
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 9:16 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:33 am
Posts: 1899
First name: Willard
Last Name: Guthrie
City: Cumberland
State: Maryland 21502
Zip/Postal Code: 21502
Country: United State
Focus: Repair
Status: Semi-pro
Mr. John Arnold's November 2009 post on UMGF is informative with regard to runout in red spruce in particular and spruces in general. I spent a good part of Sunday milling and gluing up Style 40 series rosettes in two red spruce tops sourced from Mr. Arnold, and neither shows much in the way of runout, leading me to believe that he practices what he preaches as a sawyer. The tops are destined for two matching Style 42 12 fret dreadnoughts in Brazilian rosewood and Honduras mahogany - such a thrill to be allowed to help with these guitars!

http://theunofficialmartinguitarforum.yuku.com/topic/92126/Grading-choices-runout-vs-other-cosmetic-issues

From that post:

Quote:
The majority of the red spruce that Martin buys is cut from long logs, rather than from split billets. That is because red spruce trees are small, and splitting the wood will reduce the yield. Splitting billets is also a lot more labor-intensive than cutting long logs with a sawmill. That said, Ted Davis always insisted on splitting the red spruce we cut, and I am convinced that it produces superior tonewood. Martin mentions the preference for tops cut from split billets in their specifications for topwood. Cutting long logs means that if the tree has spiral, then the tops will have runout. Most spruce trees grow with at least a little spiral. Moreover, the runout will be most severe on the bark edge, which is generally used as the joining edge because the heart of a red spruce has defects like pin knots and heart checks. Sawing spiral logs from split billets allows the cutter to determine the location that has zero runout. If you place the 'zero runout line' in the middle of each board, then you have minimized the total amount of runout. Each edge will have some runout, but in opposite directions. I have used this sawing technique for those billets with a lot of spiral (approaching 2" in two feet). But the ideal way to saw spiral billets is to place the zero runout line on the joining edge. That means that the tops still have runout, but it won't be seen because the top reflects the same in the middle. It also locates the stiffest, strongest wood under the bridge. I have noticed that there is a higher occurrence and degree of spiral in the slower-growing red spruce trees. Since Martin grades on tightness of grain, that would explain the increased incidence of runout in their higher grade red spruce tops. I am convinced that runout was one of the main factors Martin considered when they used red spruce in the 1930's. That is because many of those tops were reverse joined, with the bark edge on the outside. It is not possible to do that with much of the red spruce being cut today because the trees are smaller.


There are also some excellent pictures from Mr. Mario Proulx in the thread showing just how much twist can occur in red spruce. I had no idea!

_________________
A constellation only takes shape when one maps the whole.
- Beth Brower



These users thanked the author Woodie G for the post (total 2): JSDenvir (Thu Feb 11, 2016 11:16 am) • Tom West (Thu Feb 11, 2016 10:16 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Martin Authentic ad
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 10:22 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:59 pm
Posts: 3621
First name: Dennis
Last Name: Kincheloe
City: Kansas City
State: MO
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I totally agree with that John Arnold post. When cutting a spiral log, I'd rather have zero runout at the joining edge and more at the outside, than medium at either edge. Looks better, planes better, and the wood around the outer part of the lower bout isn't under as much long grain stress anyway.

Tom West wrote:
Hard to get a perfect set, almost every set will have some . Now lets all show the ones we've built with runout.
Tom

Runout and bearclaw :) Sounds great.
Attachment:
Front.jpg


And just for fun, this isn't a spruce, but is the most intensely spiral grown tree I've ever run across.
Attachment:
Twist.jpg


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Martin Authentic ad
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 11:08 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 2:25 pm
Posts: 1958
First name: George
City: Seattle
State: WA
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Not my best sounding effort, but I don't think the runout is at fault.

Image

_________________
George :-)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Martin Authentic ad
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 8:41 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:33 am
Posts: 1899
First name: Willard
Last Name: Guthrie
City: Cumberland
State: Maryland 21502
Zip/Postal Code: 21502
Country: United State
Focus: Repair
Status: Semi-pro
At what run-out angle do we start to see meaningful reductions in stiffness? How little run-out is required to cause a noticeable difference in apparent brightness between the bass and treble sides of a spruce top?

The building guide I am using references a government standard for scarf joints in spruce spars used in airplane wings, but does not give anything other than "...excessive run-out will reduce longitudinal stiffness in bending - angles greater than 5 degrees should be avoided for primary structures such as tops or bracing." as a guide to use. Does anyone have a good reference to support a suggested maximum run-out angle for stiffness? Thanks!

_________________
A constellation only takes shape when one maps the whole.
- Beth Brower


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Martin Authentic ad
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 1:18 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:59 pm
Posts: 375
Location: Co cork Ireland
Country: Ireland
Focus: Build
If you're building to specific numbers top thickness wise then wouldn't a less stiff piece of wood sound better than a stiffer piece all else being equal?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Martin Authentic ad
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 3:18 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2010 12:17 am
Posts: 1292
First name: John
Last Name: Arnold
City: Newport
State: TN
Zip/Postal Code: 37821
Country: USA
Focus: Repair
Status: Professional
Quote:
At what run-out angle do we start to see meaningful reductions in stiffness?

It is much more than the runout than is generally considered acceptable in a guitar top. You rarely see grain slope of more than 1 in 10 in instrument wood....if for no other reason than the cosmetics. As a repairman, I witness the worst effect of runout....when a bridge pulls loose and pulls pieces of spruce with it on the 'wrong' side of a runout top. OTOH, removing a bridge is easier when the top has some runout because you can attack it from opposite directions on either side of the center seam.
Quote:
How little run-out is required to cause a noticeable difference in apparent brightness between the bass and treble sides of a spruce top?

It is extremely slight (1 in 50, probably). That is partly because the effect is doubled when bookmatching. One degree of runout means that the difference in grain direction in the two halves of a bookmatched top is two degrees.
Also note that runout is most visible with a distinct (point) light source. Runout will tend to be most obvious in direct sunlight or in a flash photo, and least visible with diffuse lighting.
Quote:
If you're building to specific numbers top thickness wise then wouldn't a less stiff piece of wood sound better than a stiffer piece all else being equal?

'Better' is a relative term. A less stiff top will tend to produce more bass, but less treble. If you want more bass, then it would be better. But 'muddy' is not normally a good thing....either for projection or for using a microphone.

_________________
John


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Martin Authentic ad
PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:35 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:10 pm
Posts: 2764
First name: Tom
Last Name: West
State: Nova Scotia
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
mike-p wrote:
If you're building to specific numbers top thickness wise then wouldn't a less stiff piece of wood sound better than a stiffer piece all else being equal?


All other things being equal, a stiffer top allows one to go thinner and thus less weight and more responsiveness. For me this is important.
Tom

_________________
A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Martin Authentic ad
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 12:50 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:59 pm
Posts: 375
Location: Co cork Ireland
Country: Ireland
Focus: Build
That's what I mean. If you're building to specific thickness a less stiff top would move more readily with string vibration?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Martin Authentic ad
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 1:01 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:59 pm
Posts: 3621
First name: Dennis
Last Name: Kincheloe
City: Kansas City
State: MO
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
mike-p wrote:
That's what I mean. If you're building to specific thickness a less stiff top would move more readily with string vibration?

Yep.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Martin Authentic ad
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 9:57 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2011 2:21 am
Posts: 668
Location: Philadelphia
First name: Michael
Last Name: Shaw
City: Philadelphia
State: PA
Zip/Postal Code: 19125
Country: USA
Focus: Repair
Status: Semi-pro
I love how runout follows you from one side of a room to the other. Like a fine painting who's eyes follow you.

Sent from my HTC Desire 626s using Tapatalk

_________________
Another day, another dollar.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com