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Sitka or red spruce for braces? I'd be interested in learning which species people prefer and why.

Thanks,

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George :-)

Red Spruce, I'm within driving distance of John Arnold and the Hampton Bros and its nice to pick out superior bracewood from split billets

I bought a large box of Engelmann years go. It has proved to be very light and the stiffest of anything I have tested, over Sitka and Lutz. I've never used Red though.

I consider John Greven a very good reference and in his popular article
http://www.grevenguitars.com/pdfs/MartinMyths.pdf
He states that Martin never used Red Spruce for bracing.

I had a mess of wonderful Englemann at one time and interestingly my tests indicated that it was not as stiff as Sitka bracing or tops. It Certainly is lighter than Sitka or Adi. Of KMG the instruments I still have access to have aged I think (to my ear) the Sitka versions have a slight edge. Consequently I no longer use Englemann.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

I've been using lutz, which I bought a few years ago because Shane Neifer was selling it in nice big split wedges, which allow me to get a lot more zero-runout braces relative to the amount of waste than I can with the small sawn billets that most luthier suppliers sell.

But when that runs out, I think I'll go with something higher density like sitka or red. Going by the numbers on wood-database.com, strength (modulus of rupture) seems to track with density, and higher strength means slower creep rate. The higher density braces will weigh a few grams more when carved to the same stiffness, but it's not enough to worry about.

Port Orford cedar is even better, with a strength of 85MPa, compared to sitka's 70. And some pines are higher still.

And then there's the possibility of laminating with a high strength hardwood center like purpleheart (151MPa), to get even more creep resistance at the cost of a little more weight and the extra work of laminating them. And of course there's always carbon fiber, too.

But for the most part, all the spruces seem to work well as bracewood.

I've found most species of spruce vary quite a bit. None more so than Englemann. Some of it is on the soft side and some is very stiff. About eight years ago, I got a great deal from a guy in B.C. His Englemann comes from the northern Rockies and he supplies Martin, Taylor and others. I bought 50 tops and he threw in some bracing for free.
This stuff is lighter and stiffer than any of the Sitka I've got. Besides the Englemann and Sitka, I have some Red spruce and split wedges of Lutz.

Which one do I use most ? I really don't know. It depends on the properties of the top, the type of back and sides, and the size of the body.

Reading the John Greven info is really recommended.

Brent

Thanks for the replies. Yeah, I've read the info from Greven (and others). Interesting stuff. So far I've used either Sitka or lutz for braces; both have performed well for me.

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George :-)

Spruce dimensional lumber makes up 90% of my brace wood. The other 10% is lutz. The major difference I see is that the scrap/waste/fallout from 2x4's is a lot cheaper than the scrap from the lutz. A lot of both ends up in the fire.

Thanks

I am assuming that is Engelmann, since that is the only spruce I see in dimensional lumber here in the southeastern US (S-P-F grading stamp).
I used to use Engelmann in the 1980's, but since I started cutting red spruce in the late-1980's, it is my preference. The only reason I use Sitka today is for historical accuracy....Martin used Sitka bracing on their red spruce tops in the 1930's. But I believe Martin's use of Sitka bracing was driven not by sound, but by the need for runout free stock, which was elusive with the red spruce. Back then, red spruce tops were cut from boards, not from split billets. Good bracewood is a side benefit of cutting red spruce from split billets.

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John

"But I believe Martin's use of Sitka bracing was driven not by sound, but by the need for runout free stock"

That is the primary requirement I use for selecting brace wood. Engelmann, Sitka, or other spruces - I can compensate for weight and stiffness, but not for runout.

You might consider torrefied bracing from Stewmac. Could be a hit or miss though on stiffness of what they send.


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"It is easier to fool a man, than it is to convince him that he has been fooled"
Mark Twain

John Greven was a great customer of mine and he and I would not talk too often but when we did it was for nearly an hour or so each time. He preferred to use the spruce (Lutz) that I would saw for him for tops and red spruce for braces. The guitar he built for me is made that way as well. He felt that red was typically stiffer, which he liked. I believe Greenfield did the same, although I did send him a lot of Lutz bracewood as well so a large number of his guitars will have Lutz bracewood.

Hope that helps

Shane

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Canada

Ditto...


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Mountain Song Guitars www.mountainsongguitars.com

Yep

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

All things being equal I'll chose any spruce over Sitka. I find Sitka is the toughest to cut with handtools. A bit catchy compared to other spruces. Not a big difference but enough to matter when working. I tend to cut a bunch of bracing stock at one time, check it for stiffness, weigh it and mark these figures on pairs of braces.
Tom

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A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

Thanks all. I decided to give red a try and ordered a box from the Hampton brothers.

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George :-)

+1
I despise working Sitka bracing, but I have painted myself into a corner by promoting the fact that Martin used it in the 1930's. I used red spruce on the last two guitars, and IMHO they are among my best.
If you think stiff and light is advantageous, it is better to use the lightest spruce and make the braces slightly taller.

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John

Limited experience here but when I bought tops and bracing from the Hampton bros they said European was the best bracing. I did a basic stiffness test and euro was stiffer and lighter and a joy to carve. Got it from the fantastically named rudi fuchs in austria -germanspruce.com a joy to carve and highly recommended.