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Hey all -

I've been following this forum for a while, but this is my first post. Thanks so much to all of you that post regularly. It's been enormously helpful.

I'm considering trying Enduro-Var for an upcoming build. Does anyone have insight into how you do a burst (a sunburst for example) with this finish? So far my experience has been limited to spraying a burst with shellac. One of the things I liked about the shellac was having the option of sanding back the burst if I wanted a do-over.

For what I understand, shellac under Enduro-Var isn't recommended. Would a schedule similar to this work?

- Pore Fill with Epoxy Finishing Resin
- Spray or brush a few coats of Enduro-Var
- Spray the burst using Enduro-Var as the base and tinted with ColorTone
- Continue a typical Enduro-Var schedule until complete

Why not just spray the color tone (dyes) then finish with endurovar? Just curious. Not sure why the finish material needs tone. Disclaimer: I've not tried sunburst of any kind. But if I did, my inclination would be to use colored dyes. Straight onto the wood.

Now, disregard all I said until someone who knows better comes along. I will say I've color tinted some EM6000 once when I had issues with CA wicking stains in a top. Worked great.

Mike - I think it's possible to add the dye to either water or alcohol and spray directly on bare wood, and some people do this. But, I've read that it can tend to look blotchy on spruce. Applying a light coat of shellac on the wood first would help with this, but I've read it's best not to put shellac under epoxy pore filling or Enduro-Var.

That leaves me wondering how others are doing a burst with Enduro-Var. Or maybe it's not not a good idea. Not sure.

Mike I think your schedule will work fine --- tinting Enduro Var just like any other water based finish. One color for the center and a darker color for the burst. I'd apply with a gravity feed spray gun, the small gun gives a lot of freedom and control for shading the burst.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

That's encouraging Ken. Thanks! I'm going to order some Enduro-Var and give it a go with some test boards.

I had really bad luck with varnish peeling off when painted over shellac.

My understanding is that back in ye olde days - the pieces and parts were dyed and then finish was applied over the dyed wood. And this lead to the somewhat blotchy appearance of old fashioned bursts and such finishes.

You use a dye base which is not cut by the thinners in your finish. So water base dyes for oil base finishes and vise versa.

As an aside - I am impressed with how nice and thin the old finishes are compared to today's super thick finishes... And how well they have held up over time.

"General Finishes" states clearly in their literature that the OP subject "Enduro water base varnish" is not compatible with shellac.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

This might work under EnduroVar. I'll ask next time I'm ordering. http://www.woodessence.com/UltraSeal-WB ... 61C23.aspx

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

I know it seems odd but the Enduro WB varnish is billed as a self sealing coating General even states that their own sanding sealer should not be used --- go figure. I like the look of this amber tinted coating not to mention its fast drying and great sandability. We are changing up to make Enduro our go to finish.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

With this being a water based varnish - I would test out an oil based stain coat on scrap, let it dry a few days, then varnish over it to test for both bleed and proper adhesion...... Most likely, an alcohol or water base stain will bleed.....

EV is a great finish. It has a learning curve. I would think a sealer coat, then a color coat, then a finish coat. I'd want the color to be what it is, and the finish to be what is. I'm confused about why folks want to infuse the finish coat with color. Again, I did tint s top coat once (em 6000), but that was only to deal with CA spruce discoloration. Worked.

I always recommend following the manufacturer's' instruction and warnings

Enduro-Var top coat, a modified oil urethane in a water system, is our premium urethane water base top coat. This is a highly advanced self crosslinking system. Check out our blog posts here for details on Endurovar projects from our customers.


Sheens: Flat, satin, semi-gloss and gloss sheens.
Color tone: Amber
Application: Acrylic brush, foam brush, paint pad applicator, or spray
Recoat: 4 hours
Cleanup: Soap and warm water Coverage:150 sq. ft/qt
Coats: Usually 3, additional coats can be applied
Sanding: On bare wood sand to 180, 220 for more open grained woods.
Additives: Do not add cross linker to this product - it is already cross linked
Sealer: Do not use sealers with the product.
Use: Interior Only
VOC: <275g/l (2.28lbs/gal.)

Enduro-Var ADHERES WELL only over WATER STAINS, DYE STAINS, and RAW WOOD. It will adhere over an oil stain ONLY IF the stain is completely dry (minimum 4 days drying). Use Enduro-Var over any other surfaces at your own risk. Recommended uses: windows, book- cases, wall shelves, furniture, counters, dressers, stools, millwork, doors, kitchen cupboards, and tables.

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

Will Enduro-Var amber walnut or cherry if you are not going to stain it? Yes, it departs a warm amber tone, and brings out grain definition as a traditional solvent urethane would. Works great on exotic woods such as paduk, cocobolo, and bubinga.
What is the difference between Enduro-Var and High Performance? Biggest difference is Enduro-Var ambers and High Performance is water white with no amber. Enduro-Var is a modified urethane with no acrylic and is slightly more durable, chemical and water resistant. High Performance is a combination of urethane and acrylic and is durable enough for most interior projects.
Can I use shellac under the Enduro-Var? No, if you need to lock in dye, use only one light coat, dewaxed, 1# cut, and sand before applying for adherence.
Can I tint Enduro-Var to add color to my project? Yes, Enduro-Var can be used as a toner. Add 5% of any of General Finish dye or RTM stain, which will enhance the color tone. Amber or Vintage Cherry work great or a 50/50 combination of both, for a deep oiled look. Two coats will give you even more color and depth.
Can I use the Enduro-Var over oil base stains? Yes, Enduro-Var can be applied over any dried stain. For standard oil base stains 24-48 hour wait time, water base stains and dyes two hours. Not recommended over linseed oil or danish oils.
How do I apply the top coat with out getting any bubbles or overlaps? Apply liberally to ensure workability. Brush on using full, wet coats of finish with long, overlapping strokes. Do not over work this product, it starts drying right away. Catch a missed area on the next pass. If you are doing large areas such as tables or doors, use a Handi-Painter applicator, spray or use a larger brush, and keep a wet edge.
Can I use Enduro-Var for exterior applications? No, it is not exterior rated. Exterior 450 is our exterior rated acrylic finish.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

This is all great info! Does anyone have an Enduro-Var schedule that seems to be working well for them and would be willing to post. I've gathered some bits here and there by reading old posts, but seeing a schedule laid out would be helpful too.


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Mike, replies seems to be slow in coming, so, not sure if you've seen this http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=43510&hilit=enduro+var+schedule&start=25
Might make a reasonable starting point anyway.
You may recognize the names on the email.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

I agree with Colin -- Jeff's guide is where to start. I don't have a final schedule yet mainly because I am working to develop a forced drying process something with both warm air and infrared red. The amazing thing (at least to me) is that this product can actually be sanded in about two hours --- just dust no clogging -- nice! 320 grit is also the magic number.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Thanks Colin and and Ken. I checked out that link. In addition to the schedule outlined there, Mike O'Melia posted one. It sounds like he sprays all the coats in a single day.
viewtopic.php?t=46495

I sprayed many coats on some test boards the other day. I'm using the Harbor Freight / Rockler spray system. I'll need to dedicate some time to getting this system to spay a thin even coat. Right now, I'm getting a significant amount of orange peel. I may try thinning the EV too.

Enduro-Var looks promising. I'll update this post once I've leveled the boards.

General makes Enduro Extender for thinning stains and finishes, Michael. I use it instead of distilled water. It gives you a longer drying time, that might help with the orange peel.

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

Thanks Alex. I might give that a try.